Topic: Hunting gripe  (Read 1428 times)


Ruttiger

« on: August 07, 2021, 06:29:54 PM »
I really am getting irritated at the current state of hunting.

In the past, it was easy to follow tracks, maybe too easy, but at the same time, the current system is the opposite.  It's nearly impossible to track animals through woods, something that should be vastly, vastly easier than tracking them through the open.  I would likely be less annoyed if it weren't the simple graphical limitations of what we are doing making it not work, you have to be zoomed out to hunt because animals react to you before they are on screen at any reasonable zoom.  I don't like squinting at the tiny graphics on the screen, that's annoying enough on it's own, but the changes to tracking within wooded tiles are just unforgivable.  An elk moving through forest leaves a distinct trail that should be EASY to follow, thick woods make it easier to do, not harder, yet the second an elk is in thick woods, which represent probably 80% of the map, it's impossible to follow them with the sparse tracks.  Zooming helps, but not much.  You can't have relevant game data hidden by the normal environment like that.  The past system might have been too forgiving, but the current state of "oh, you want to see a track that's behind this normal sized tree?  Too bad, I know you'd be able to see them clearly if you were standing on the ground but you are hovering 60 feet in the air.

Punishing us this way is inane.  Hell, hunting in general has become inane.  Animals recover fatigue so quickly that chasing them down over the course of hours just does not work anymore, and I'm on a character with 6km walking speed.  There's no point to hunting in forests at all anymore, live on a mire or don't bother hunting.

Sorry about the gripe, I love this game, it's just disheartening to see another game go this way where they'll make everything stupidly hard but not give us the tools to deal with the simple game limitations that shouldn't be limitations at all. I watched C:DDA descending into utter unplayability over the course of years and seeing this game become less and less playable as time passes makes me sad.  And it's not just this, I've read the new beta nerfs fishing, requiring bait to get anything at all.

Which is silly, because the game doesn't offer you the infinite free bait available to any iron age finnish fisherman.  Every single pike you caught would have it's guts put into a trap for other fish.  Worms are everywhere and free with a little sweat.  Other insects too.  There's no reason to nerf fishing other than "it made surviving too easy and we want it to be hard", it's not realistic, it doesn't expand the game content, it just makes it so everyone needs to be constantly scrambling for another reindeer because another normal source of food is off the table. 

ineedcords

« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2021, 10:08:21 PM »
I really am getting irritated at the current state of hunting.

In the past,<snip>
Welcome to the forums. Now, that's an entrance! :)

Sorry to hear you are frustrated with the game - my post below is not to disprove your points but just to share my point of view...
I personally do not agree with the overall sentiment that active hunting is hard in thick forests as overall animal AI is not that sophisticated and you can easily tire a reindeer herd by simply going around in the general vicinity. You do not need to track an animal perfectly to get a kill - even a semi random search pattern in the area works good enough in my experience. And after a while, when they are breathless (assuming you are not injured/breathless etc.) then they will start dropping like flies.

Furthermore even when it "doesn't work" that shouldn't always be problem either as in general you do not need 100% success rate in your hunts, a more relaxed hunting strategy in which only some hunts end up with kill might be less stressful and more fun as this is a game. Based on the text below it might actually be more realistic not to aim 100% success rate in active hunts (I get that we are not lions but it is provided as an example from the nature):
Quote
Lions are the archetypal apex predator, but their hunting success rate strongly depends on the number of lions involved – a single lion hunting in daylight has a success rate of 17-19 per cent, but this increases for those hunting as a group to 30 per cent. Of 1,300 hunts observed in the Serengeti, nearly half involved only one animal, 20 per cent involved two and the rest a group of (normally) between three and eight individuals.
( source: https://www.discoverwildlife.com/animal-facts/mammals/hunting-success-rates-how-predators-compare/ )

Below is an example video, not a particularly methodical one or good hunting in any way, wastes a lot of time (sped up in the video) but in the end, this hunt achieves the ultimate goal of obtaining skin and meat so I call it a success regardless: https://youtu.be/-Qj6vwtU4b8?t=251

If you would like more methodical examples, there are other active UrW hunting videos on YouTube if I recall correctly Jonathan Ferguson posted some complete beginners active hunting tutorials.

Currently if you do find active hunting hard with the current game version, suggesting devs changing the game is one way. As an alternative approach, you might just want to change your methods slightly but unable to suggest something useful specific to you as I don't know how much experience you have with the game and active hunting but if you share your approach in text or even better perhaps record a video and post the link we can maybe discuss? There are a lot of veterans who would be willing to analyse and assist.

Another option is perhaps getting a single dog which will bypass the "difficulty of tracking" problem as you will be simply following the barks instead.

Yet another option is hunting in winter time as it is much easier to tire animals but also much easier to spot tracks on snow - of course this removes half of year so not that great.
I get that last two suggestions are reductive solutions but I cannot think of another solution to the problem you describe without reducing overall difficulty and thus making it even less of a challenge for other players.

Quote
Sorry about the gripe, I love this game, it's just disheartening to see another game go this way where they'll make everything stupidly hard but not give us the tools to deal with the simple game limitations that shouldn't be limitations at all.
I think it is a great that you are voicing your feedback. If there is a genuine problem (which I might be missing here) alerting devs is the only way to get it fixed. Hope you stick around and soon start enjoying the active hunting phase of the game once again.

--
Edit: modified the YouTube hyperlink to skip to the beginning of hunt at 4m11s mark
« Last Edit: August 07, 2021, 10:11:16 PM by ineedcords »
This could be a good day to utilize your squirrels hides.

Tom H

« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2021, 10:48:53 PM »
Ruttiger- Tracking is a matter of consistently maintaining contact with the animal's spoor. In deep woods, especially in deep woods, even a high tracking score can fail at this. When the track is lost, it can often be picked up again by widening your search into a circle around the last sighting. Perseverance will be required in these worst circumstances.

It may be asking for too much to expect to track even heavy animals all the time. Perhaps the soil is very hard. Perhaps the ground is stony. There could be many reasons a hunt might fail. An alternative to the labor of tracking is to use dogs to track the animal for you. In truth, though, I stopped using dogs for hunting long ago because they are more vital for fending off robbers and Njerp bands. It is far simpler to just chase game across open terrain and allow them the grace of sanctuary when they succeed in reaching the forest...heh.

Tinker

« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2021, 10:30:22 AM »
Tracking has always a Problem for except in winter when it is sometimes to easy.

Active hunting is always a problem as well, I do not count squirrels and birds as active hunting, I mean something substantial that will cloth me and feed me for week. I have never, in two years playing, succeeded in active hunting. Until this week.

My fishing and trapping site started to get overrun by a herd of reindeer, they usually set off all the traps and as I was never prepared I never got more than one or two chances to even hit one. A few days later I was going half a km south to collect plants when I came on the reindeer herd on an open mire, I shot an arrow at one in the centre, on the basis it might hit another if it missed the target. It missed everything and the herd scattered, all but one ran into the trees but the other went west further into the open mire.

I walked behind it, keeping myself between the herd and my dinner. There was a lot of water around but it had frozen enough to walk on, the reindeer avoided the ice which meant it was moving a lot more than me. After about 150m it seemed to get the idea it should be with the herd and started to try circling around me, an arrow that inevitably missed made it turn to circle the other way. About 5 minutes later I was down to one curved arrow but the reindeer was to tired to move so I moved to about 10m and single shot killed it. 120 cuts of meat and a fine fur and I got most of my arrows back.

As for fishing needing bait, it always seemed illogical that you could fish without bait. Your idea that fish guts (and perhaps cut up small fish) should be harvestable as bait is perfectly reasonable, I always did that irl. It also brings up the other missing resource, all the organs from butchered animals a great food source that deteriorates quickly but could also be used a bait for fishing or in traps.

trowftd

« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2021, 01:53:54 PM »
Honestly, I don't think active hunting is that bad. But the caveat here is that you are somewhat "forced" (quotes are emphasized) to build your character in a certain way. You need fast character with high eyesight with bow or spear skill high, good endurance. Which makes sense, these are fundamental for hunting in wild. I tried to tackle this with trying out some crossbow builds with a Driik character, but creating a Kaumo is way easier. You don't need to push it too much, I honestly left some game after I missed the first shot. If I am in a thick forest, I look to hit them on the first shot otherwise tracking them is not my priority unless I need the meat or the skin badly.

One thing that irritated me when I was active hunting, was the damage. It always felt like my grandmaster bowman was just not able to get a critical hit on a game, I always resorted to endurance hunting because the arrow did almost no damage, but looking at the game as a whole, masterwork bow and arrow needs an edge so that they are a lot more preferable. I realized that my initial reaction to the problem was stemming from the fact that my hunting tactic almost completely revolves around getting the first hit. So damage annoyed me more than it should because I relied on it too much. In a similar manner, I think depending on a single style often results in frustration.

As for the graphical limitations, I think the game would benefit greatly from a widescreen support. This is no easy task by any means but I think it would greatly improve player's time spent in a thick forest or searching for arrows. There are some graphical edits you can make to get tracks and arrows stand out more but these are rather "hacks" more than anything. But don't let this make your game experience worse for you. If you find yourself squinting way too much and you get eye fatigue, why not do the graphical mods. It is not multiplayer, you are not taking away anyone else's game experience, so why not.

JP_Finn

« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2021, 05:35:23 PM »
I wouldn’t mind “recalled” tiles to get implemented.
As in; your character seems animal tracks, steps behind a tree, losing eye sight of the tracks. It’d be useful for the character to “recall” seen tracks in the out of sight area. Same would be usable for traps, and dropped items in general. If a robber happens to walk by and pick up the items, leave the “recalled things” as is until seen/visited again. Same for traps, show them on screen as last seen, if an elk tramples through loop snare, only show it triggered after revisiting.

That’d ease active hunting/tracking in thick woods. Paying attention to new tracks, next to recalled tracks, would help with crafty quarry.

I hope your characters eye sight, and tracking are sufficient for spotting and recognizing the tracks reliably.

Shadowdweller

« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2021, 06:47:58 AM »
Just started playing this game again with a semi-serious character for the first time in maybe 5 years or so?  I was able to bring down an elk, a reindeer, and two bears within maybe an hour's worth of RL time?  With a slowish char wielding javelins at 42% skill and not cheesing prey against waterways (albeit maybe 60% tracking skill).  The hunting system doesn't seem the slightest bit more difficult to me.  Tracking has for many years been highly terrain and snow-dependent.  Some characters cannot do active hunting very well...particularly in the wrong season.  That's what trapping is for.

While I have not as of yet tried fishing without an iron hook, the success rates presently seem better and more consistent than they were previously.  Particularly when using meat bait for predatory fish like pike.

codyo

« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2021, 07:54:03 PM »
What would make hunting in the woods, areas with very low visibility and obstacles between you and your prey easier than hunting out on an open plain?

You're still hunting against a prey's sense of hearing, which seems to be simulated adequately in the game where animals run away when you get within 30 feet of them even if they can't hear you, whereas in real life you'd never be able to sneak up on a deer just like that. Active hunting seems chancy enough in this game where you won't always be able to succeed in every single expedition. There's even an element of practice to Unreal World if you're trying to hunt in thick spruce forests that you have to kind of be able to guess where prey is running to based on looking at one track. If you examine every single track you come across you spend too much time wasted on the trail when your prey is spending time running and resting ahead. There's also a lot of factors based on your own character's speed and endurance on whether you'd be able to even chase an animal down.

One thing I may agree with is that sneak skill doesn't seem to make much of a difference whether it's low, average, or high when you're after prey. Even a 90% expert seems to "fail" a stealth check by snapping twigs every several steps.

Shadowdweller

« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2021, 12:34:38 AM »
Yeah, high stealth usually only allows you to get a couple steps closer to your prey. And while this makes a bit of difference as far as reducing range penalties or lining up a clear shot, the difference is subtle enough to be hardly noticeable if you're not pretty familiar with the game already.

Acolyte

« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2021, 08:16:03 PM »
Stealth makes a massive difference to your first shot. URW compares the success level of you shot versus the success level of the targets dodge, almost always reducing the damage by a considerable amount. If the target can't see you, there is no dodge. Always try to hide before taking a shot, if you can. You can unhide to chase.

   - Shane

Shadowdweller

« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2021, 11:05:30 AM »
Stealth makes a massive difference to your first shot. URW compares the success level of you shot versus the success level of the targets dodge, almost always reducing the damage by a considerable amount. If the target can't see you, there is no dodge. Always try to hide before taking a shot, if you can. You can unhide to chase.
Hmm.  You know, while I will readily admit that it's been....years...I was rather under the impression that dodge did not apply to ranged attacks.  (Which is one of the things that makes thrown weapons so effective in Njerpez/Robber fights).  Something that could be readily tested I would imagine, if the damage difference is, as you say, considerable.

PALU

« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2021, 02:12:41 PM »
A running target is harder to hit than one that is stationary or moving slowly, and I believe that applies to ranged attacks, and it's obviously a lot easier to achieve that while the target is (mostly) unaware of you.

Shadowdweller

« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2021, 04:32:18 AM »
A running target is harder to hit than one that is stationary or moving slowly, and I believe that applies to ranged attacks, and it's obviously a lot easier to achieve that while the target is (mostly) unaware of you.
I believe the accuracy penalty against running targets ONLY applies to ranged attacks. One other benefit of stealth though is that the target is less likely to notice or be spooked by a missed shot.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2021, 04:34:24 AM by Shadowdweller »

Evuul

« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2021, 12:33:46 PM »
I really am getting irritated at the current state of hunting.

It's a mis of your skill, how you apply them, and luck.

For me, easier would spoil my game.

I do agree a little on the bait stuff, should be more ways as you mention.

Fark

« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2021, 02:15:18 AM »
My main source of furs/food ingame has always been active hunting. Call it roleplay but most of the time I play as Owl-tribe, so increased hunting-related skills are a godsend.

I think your first problem is that you're actively hunting without dogs, or that you are hunting in dense forest (biggest nono with active hunting imho). Dogs are the best tool at your disposal if you want to consistently actively hunt.

I recommend taking 2 dogs minimum and 4 max on a hunting trip. All you need to do is find your prey, shoot an arrow or throw a spear (if you are close), then group command your dogs to attack and unleash them.

Keep pace with the general direction of your dogs by running and once your dogs are out of sight start walking in the way they went or the direction of their barks. After a short time your dogs will begin rapidly barking, an indicator that your prey has become exhausted, allowing you to walk up to it and put it down.

 

anything