Topic: Question about Combat and Accuracy  (Read 1645 times)


PyreBaron

« on: October 08, 2019, 04:16:20 AM »
I've been trying to properly get into this game for a week now. I love the grounded elements and how the game plays so slowly but with a great deal of pressure placed on me to be efficient and prepared.

What I can't stand is the sheer inconsistency of the combat mechanics. Example: Playing full rando start. Get some middling axe skills 45%~ and a Fine Woodsmans from trading starter gear and go hunting for some reds. Find two, poorly equipped but so am I. I drop both in 7 rounds after first blood with proper spacing and back peddling. Bleed, and retreat, and repeat. Go for the killing stroke (Edge to Necks) let them bleed, and score some nice gear for use and trade. Never got a scratch. The problem comes after that character died.

I roll a Warrior Woman. Proper Amazonian Archer, maxed all stats but Int and Touch. I go Red hunting. Find two, and with my master bow and spear skills (85/90) miss two of my three >20 tile distance shots with my shortbow. I go for the unarmored head of the uninjured one when he closes aiming with a fine spear. I counter and attack and get 6 consecutive misses/ glancing blows. 3 to body, 3 to head and none connect. He meanwhile lands several hits going through my counters every time with a basic handaxe. The second guy closes and I die.

Both times I had proper rest, less than -8% Encumbrance Penalty, and average protection. Can someone tell me why this happened like this? Every time I roll a combat character I never see a big difference in how they preform. I still miss 4 of 5 bow shots with short bows on all of them. Is there some mechanic besides Penalties and tiredness that effect combat accuracy? I understand getting killed because the other guy gets a lucky hit on my neck but for the past 4 characters I set myself up to win and the attacks just don't land.

I want to like this game and I know the combat isn't supposed to be much more than dice rolls but I'm getting frustrated. If I die I want it to be my fault and not because my shots on elks miss every time and I starve.

TL:DR Why do my characters who are basically combat demi-gods on paper keep missing ranged and melee attacks? INB4 RNGesus hate me.

PALU

« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2019, 10:54:37 AM »
Combat is extremely dangerous, although there are some tactics that can skew the odds heavily in your favor.
The skill of Njerps vary widely, so you may encounter pushovers as well as grand masters. Basically, you're not supposed to attack people and expect to survive, at least not with starting characters.
Fighting more than one enemy is very dangerous, but may be pulled off with exploiting tactics.

Penalties are punishing. Encumbrance takes a large toll, and fatigue from exertion is deadly (the main tactic I use against Njerps relies on them running themselves into the ground, making them into easy kills: the trick is to keep out of their way for long enough), which means running when encumbered is a good way to kill yourself. Injuries add penalties as well, so whoever gets in the first hit immediately gains an advantage.
Armor protection is vital in that it can turn a hit from a serious wound to a light one or nothing at all, and when balanced properly the encumbrance is definitely worth it.

Ranged attacks get additional penalties due to the distance, and aims to the head also has heavy penalties (and most of the time when a hit IS scored it hits somewhere else).

JEB Davis

« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2019, 12:26:36 PM »
+1 PALU

I think many of us would also want it this way: "If I die I want it to be my fault and not because my shots on elks miss every time and I starve." ... BUT when I think about my real life I have to admit that life doesn't treat us this way at all. And that's one of the great things about UrW for me, because sometimes the game isn't fair just like real life isn't fair.

It sounds like many of the things you mention are what you said, just bad strings of random numbers. Stick with it a bit more and the game might grow on you  :)

Acolyte

« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2019, 01:26:06 PM »
Part of it is that you get an attack roll, then the enemy gets a defense roll. I believe the defender wins ties.

This is why I hide if possible - I get an attack roll and they, well, don't get a defense of any kind and usually get hit and for a nasty wound. This also works if they are running away and are facing away from you.

BTW - this work great for hunting, too.

   - Shane

werepacman

« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2019, 05:22:19 PM »
Unless you have 90 skill in weapon it is very difficult to fight alone. You need help of two dogs to have good chances.

PyreBaron

« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2019, 05:26:43 PM »
I'm accounting for the combat penalties from encumbrance and fatigue, I was just wondering why with a Fine spear and a master level spear skill I can't seem to actually hit anything.

PALU

« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2019, 08:53:51 PM »
As mentioned, attack is countered by the defense of the opponent, so a 90% attack that's met with a 90% dodge means it's very hard to hit that opponent, and I'm not aware of any in-game method of determining the opponent's skill.
If this attack is aimed, I believe the effective attack skill is lowered, while the defense skill is not.

Some enemies are just extremely hard to get at, to the point that I've taken the time to move around a difficult enemy to attack from behind when fighting robbers a couple of times (with a lot of henchmen keeping the buggers occupied).

werepacman

« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2019, 09:14:31 PM »
Currently I have savegame with character who has greatsword and 96 sword skill.
And robber chops him with no chance with hunting knife.

That is why I always give character maximum shield skill. Blocking gives a chance enemy will drop weapon. Staff has also good blocking chance. You can make fine staves as disposable.

I have ho luck with other tactics for 1 on 1 fight.

PALU

« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2019, 12:44:31 AM »
- If you're not equipped for a fight, try to retreat before hostilities begin and return when you are (assuming you feel the need to fight at all).
- Wear as much armor as you can afford, given encumbrance penalties: Getting hit but taking no damage is extremely valuable, as is downgrading a hit to a minor scratch (of course, you don't want to get hit at all, but often your wishes are not granted).
- Fight with a bow and retreat as the enemy rushes towards you. If you managed to cause an injury with your first show you're in a good position. Even a small one helps.
- Once the enemy is breathless he's easy pickings with the bow.
- Have a backup melee weapon if the enemy manages to catch up with you.
- A leashed dog helps (but can also block your bow attack line, but just keep retreating if so).

- If you're using a two handed weapon you either have to dodge, block, or counter strike, as a shield together with a two handed weapon will cause the attack rolls to be done with a severe penalty. Blocking tends to damage your weapon. If you're going to use a shield, use a one handed weapon with it.

Acolyte

« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2019, 07:51:20 PM »
Worth to note - if your skill is very high a counter-strike uses your weapons skill. Both of you will likely be hit, so armor is a good idea.

If you are using a 2 handed weapon, unequip your secondary hand. Dropping is a fast way to do this.

If they drop their weapon use the G command to Get it from their position.

If you are in a bow fight, go behind a tree. If you are directly adjacent it won't block your shots but may stop theirs.

   - Shane

Erkka

« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2019, 08:20:06 PM »
In addition to what others have said;

regarding the ranged combat:
- what is the quality of the arrows you are using? Curved ones are almost guaranteed to miss, more so the longer the range.
- a stationary target is easier to hit than a moving one.

regarding melee combat:
- sometimes it is a valuable tactis to disable the opponent. For example, a good bash to the leg is better than three missed thrusts aimed at the head.

Tom H

« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2019, 10:17:03 PM »
I'm not criticizing the Op but he seems awfully optimistic. That seems a long-range bow shot at 20> with a short bow, probably the least accurate of the bows. And hand-to-hand with multiple foes will regularly go badly. It only takes a single hit to drop the odds from very good to nearly 50-50. Worst case is a Njerp/Robber that just won't die after repeated hits, while his partner keeps maneuvering for your back.

 I would not face multiple opponents without a pack of dogs and a Companion...heh. After all, stacking the odds in your favor is not an exploit, just a good strategy.


Labtop 215

« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2019, 02:24:05 AM »
Few things to add, and I'm not to sure about these, but...

-  Different ranged weapons have different optimal ranges.  Primitive and shortbows are better at close range, i.e. 10 tiles ish.  Where as hunting bows are better at 15, and longbows are better at 20 or so.  Not sure where the northern bow is good at.  Crossbows seem to be better between a range of 5 to 15 tiles, although you will probably only get 1 shot off at most.  Crossbows are more accurate than regular bows, given an equal level of mastery.  I beleive fine quality added to either the ranged weapon or the ammunition adds +1 impact (additional damage), and masterwork quality adds +1 impact and 10% to your ranged skill.  I don't know if multiple bonuses stack, and if they do, how they would stack.

-  Throwing weapons, basically Javelins, Northern Spears, and Throwing Axes all seem to have an optimal tile range of 4 - 8 tiles or so.  Same rules for quality here apply to ammunition.

-  I don't know what range is optimal for rocks, but it's better than stones, and weapons that probably aren't supposed to be thrown like swords.

-  Anything in the path between you and your target is an obstacle.  This includes animals leashed to you.  You can't shoot over your small leashed dog.  You can shoot over the fence, or the shutters in a building however.

-  Weather you are still at range or in melee combat, it's important to use "F3" to look at what your opponent is wearing and wielding.  Shooting or swinging at a part that has metalic armour is a bad idea, unless you have no better choice.  Regardless of what weapon you are using, it's often better to attack parts of the body that have inadequate protection as hit's to those areas will do more damage.  While all clothing provides some protection, the armor to watch out for is fur, leather, lamellar(?), chainmail, and then iron plate.  If fur types get added to NPC gear, bear fur armor protects more than leather, unless I'm mistaken.  Fur also seems to protect more in general due to blocking more blunt, but that's just from my personal experience.

-  Shooting at somebody wielding a shield is often a bad idea, especially if they are wielding it at CENTER, because this protects that person from ranged attacks that would hit anywhere from neck to knees, which is usually where your shots will end up.  HIGH protects the head, at the expense of leaving the lower body exposed.

-  Different weapons are better for combat than others due to their attack bonuses.  In particular, weapons in the spear class are usually better for attacking than most other weapons, with the exception of the Northern Spear, Javelin, and Small Trident, as those are worse for direct melee combat than normal, and the Battleaxe, Battle-sword, Bastard-sword, and Maul due to having either an attack bonus of 4 or 5.  All of the weapons with good attack bonuses are two handed and suffer from penalties when the other hand is not free.  Of these, the Bastard-Sword and Trident only suffer a 10% penalty, and the Battle-Axe only suffers a 15% penalty when paired with a shield.

-  No weapon is good at blocking.  The Trident, and the two staves (the regular craftable staff and the hard staff) are okay at blocking attacks.  Every other weapon is bad for blocking attacks and you probably shouldn't bother.  If you are going to block attacks, you want a Roundshield, as it has the best blocking properties, and is relitively cheap to replace which is important because blocking weapons will put wear on your equipment, as is currently the only thing to put wear and tear on your weapons and shields from what I can see.  Also, no weapon can block arrows or other projectiles, only shields can do this.  The reason you block is to try to disarm your opponent.  If you don't have good shield skill (if you are using a roundshield) or good spear skill (using staves or trident), than this is a bad idea, as you will probably take several hits before you disarm your opponent and they often have a backup weapon anyway.  You also arn't doing any damage to them directly while blocking their weapons.  Animals are already disarmed in the traditional sense and cannot be made less dangers by merely blocking them.  However if you have invested points into shield and are using one to block, they are an okay reaction to an attack if you pair that with some offensive action on your part.

-  Reactions don't use stamina.  Counter attacking with a decent weapon means you get to strike without expending energy.  Waiting a turn and then counter-attacking with a weapon that has a better attack bonus is a way to recover energy during combat.  The obvious drawback here is that the combat is taking place on your opponents terms however, and while they are fatiguing themselves don't count on running down their energy this way if that is your goal.  This often works in your flavor if your opponent has a bad weapon verses your good weapon, like a spear verses a knife or an axe.

-  Skill counts for a lot when it comes to weapon usage, and in particular this is why masterwork weapons are often better than the raw numbers might suggest.  By the numbers, a Kaumolais Spear should be the best weapon in the game before factoring in the need for a shield, but you will probably never find a masterwork version unless your character gets lucky and starts with one.  The Kaumolaiset are a very poor people, and rarely have anything for sale, let alone high end weapons.  The Driikil√§iset on the other hand tend to be very well off, so they often have more masterworks than anybody else.  Finding a masterwork sword is doable, and with persistence, a masterwork battleaxe.  Also, fighting with a weapon that you have no (or bad) skill in will put you at a significant disadvantage, regardless of the attack and defence values of the weapons and involved.

-  There is no way to predict the skill of your opponent has with the weapon they are using.  However there are parameters that NPC skills will spawn within.  However Njerpez warriors are notable for having good swordsmanship, so Njerpez with swords are far more dangerous than Njerpez without swords.  Very few people are bad with spear as well, so units with spears are also very dangerous.  Not many people know how to use a shield effectively, but Njerpez have no penalty in them, so again, beware of units with shields.

-  Most weapons deal damage based on your characters strength stat.  Arrows shot from a bow, and most weapons thrown or swung deal damage based on your strength.  Knives and arrows shot from crossbows and heavy crossbows are an exception to this and deal damage with a formula that excludes the effects of your strength attribute.  High strength characters should avoid using these weapons, while really low strength characters should use them more.  Low strength characters should only do what is needed to escape combat however, as crossbows take to long to use more than once, and knives are really bad for combat in general.  In theory, attacking sleeping units, or attacking from behind would be the application for knives.  In practice units will wake up no matter how good your stealth is, and units should only flee from you or be unconscious if you've made them do so (as in, you will most likely be wielding a better weapon anyway...).

-  Bonuses from sneak attacks only come from the unit being unconscious or facing away from you.  Being hidden is not enough.  The attack dialogue is obvious when this happen as it's considered a deathblow and the game will tell you this explicitly and offer you a choice option on where to strike that will guarantee a hit.

-  Don't bother punching anything.  Unarmed attacks have no attack or defence bonuses, and deal damage as though the weapon does 0 blunt + a small bonus amount.  Unarmed attacks can often be completely negated by regular clothing, and are strength dependant to boot.  You will also do more damage to the hide of an animal if you take it down with unarmed attacks as it will take more injuries from your attacks than from any other weapon.  Unarmed attacks go into their own separate skill.  Kicking doesn't even give you a better chance to attack someones legs.  The only good thing about unarmed combat is that it's oddly satisfying to kick a fox that you captured in your paw-board trap, as revenge for stealing your fish.  Am I the only one?

-  Blows to the arm are likely to cause your opponent to drop their weapon.  Blows to the leg are likely to knock them down.  Damage to their legs will also hamper their movement speed, which helps you out maneuver them.  You also have a big advantage over opponents who can't keep up with you.  In particular, characters with a higher speed stat will do better than characters with a low speed stat as you will often be able to keep your opponent at a distance prevent them from attacking you directly.  Sometimes, you can kill your opponent from a distance without them ever getting the opportunity to attack you even once.  This isn't as big of an advantage if they have arrows and a bow however.

-  Hostile NPC's will pickup rocks and stones along their way to attacking you as well as other weapons dropped along the way.  The wont encumber themselves to the point of not being able to move, and they are usually good about not wasting too much time doing this, but this is another reason being faster than your opponent is a huge advantage, as they will keep picking up garbage along their way to you.

Dungeon Smash

« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2019, 09:42:33 PM »
I've been trying to properly get into this game for a week now. I love the grounded elements and how the game plays so slowly but with a great deal of pressure placed on me to be efficient and prepared.

What I can't stand is the sheer inconsistency of the combat mechanics. Example: Playing full rando start. Get some middling axe skills 45%~ and a Fine Woodsmans from trading starter gear and go hunting for some reds. Find two, poorly equipped but so am I. I drop both in 7 rounds after first blood with proper spacing and back peddling. Bleed, and retreat, and repeat. Go for the killing stroke (Edge to Necks) let them bleed, and score some nice gear for use and trade. Never got a scratch. The problem comes after that character died.

I roll a Warrior Woman. Proper Amazonian Archer, maxed all stats but Int and Touch. I go Red hunting. Find two, and with my master bow and spear skills (85/90) miss two of my three >20 tile distance shots with my shortbow. I go for the unarmored head of the uninjured one when he closes aiming with a fine spear. I counter and attack and get 6 consecutive misses/ glancing blows. 3 to body, 3 to head and none connect. He meanwhile lands several hits going through my counters every time with a basic handaxe. The second guy closes and I die.

Both times I had proper rest, less than -8% Encumbrance Penalty, and average protection. Can someone tell me why this happened like this? Every time I roll a combat character I never see a big difference in how they preform. I still miss 4 of 5 bow shots with short bows on all of them. Is there some mechanic besides Penalties and tiredness that effect combat accuracy? I understand getting killed because the other guy gets a lucky hit on my neck but for the past 4 characters I set myself up to win and the attacks just don't land.

I want to like this game and I know the combat isn't supposed to be much more than dice rolls but I'm getting frustrated. If I die I want it to be my fault and not because my shots on elks miss every time and I starve.

TL:DR Why do my characters who are basically combat demi-gods on paper keep missing ranged and melee attacks? INB4 RNGesus hate me.

Shortbow range is extremely low.  I wouldn't even bother unless they're within 10 tiles, preferably within 7-8 tiles or less.  Also, shortbows are not good for combat at all.  They are emergency-level survival bows.  You might get lucky and kill some game now and then, but not suitable for combat.  As for why your spear thrusts failed, I would say bad luck.  Or, possible the nerp had really high axe skill (or both).  On the other hand, I would say you survive your other combat due to good luck.

In this game, combat against a human opponent is by far the riskiest activity available.  You should not view this as a standard roguelike, where combat is a major component and is meant to be balanced.  In this game, It is meant to be highly unpredictable and dangerous.  Even high-level characters with quality armor and weapons should approach every encounter with the utmost caution, and seek to maximize every advantage (outnumber your opponents, bring dogs, strike from surprise).  Even then, you can easily be killed through bad luck.  Starting characters should view combat as an absolute last resort.  Going into combat when you are outnumbered is a sure way to die.  Some players do make a game out of hunting nerps, it is certainly possible.  But not the focus of the game.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 09:46:35 PM by Dungeon Smash »

LoLotov

« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2019, 01:47:46 PM »
Erkka nailed it as one would expect, stab their legs. Once they're down, they get a disadvantage in melee AND might start wasting turns trying to get back up, giving you extra chances to stab their arms so they start wasting turns picking up and equipping weapons. Try to carry extra weapons you have skill with when they make YOU drop your weapons, and never try to fight in melee from prone. Just aim for body until you have them hurt quite a bit (then aim for head, high chance of killshots, but seriously don't bother til they're weak), you'll end up hitting their arms or legs at least half the time anyway. I play these combat brutes all the time and usually start on Here Be Robbers; easy to kill five guys with nothing but a staff if you sequence your hits properly and keep your back covered. Just practice, you'll find the right methods for you.

For instance, at range, I do not EVER use bows, as the extra range is meaningless when you usually fight in heavily wooded areas anyway. If you go javelins for ranged and spears for melee, you have a high damage thrown weapon suitable for typical ranged combat, a cheap and common melee weapon that's effective against most armor, and didn't waste your skill points dumping into multiple combat types. A point or two in axe or knife helps though, as you'll typically be carrying both anyway and need a backup like I mentioned above. These aren't exploits as far as I'm concerned, just a common sense build that works for me over and over again. Current character took out a fortified Njerp village only taking 8% injury, though I waited for almost maxed armor before trying.
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