Topic: Buff up the elks, add swimming and jumping over fences  (Read 2405 times)


Tom H

« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2020, 08:42:29 PM »
Coincidentally, I have a small elk caged in one game. I had left a gate open because he kept wandering nearby. The next morning he was inside my single line of fence which surrounds my settlement. I goaded him into an adjacent fenced-in garden patch and then doubled the fence around it because I wasn't sure he couldn't just break through a single line. I'm just keeping him to see what will come.

Dr.Hossa

« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2020, 05:22:44 PM »
I know I asked to buff them up, but please don't make the head any harder.

Spoiler: Story of a particularly hard-headed elk • show


That sums up to 27 solid hits to the skull with the blunt end of a woodman's axe.  ;D


Holy...  elk crap.
There has to be something wrong with the blunt damage of your axe.
I use to hit elks on the head with a stone axe,(blunt) and most of the time it drops instantly...
Or perhaps every blunt attack with impact less than 5 is not bothering an elk's brain...

@topic: I think big game should occasionally get aggressive especially when cornered. Also just on normal encounter, in rare cases.
Evolution made non-predatory mammals also big because they can defend themselves...
And Lord, you dont want an face-to-face encounter with a Wildsow who is supervising her piglets...

JP_Finn

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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2020, 03:52:32 AM »
My worst kill/best spear practice was 22 skull hits on small forest reindeer doe. With fine northern spear’s shaft.

Sami

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« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2020, 05:58:08 PM »
Ok we all know Unreal predators (even lynxes) are dangerous. But that's cool and all, I'm not here because of that.

My point is: Unreal elks aren't. They really are wimpy compared to the real ones. My current char had so much trouble chasing an elk he dropped all weapons but a small knife in order to ski faster. In the end, he knifed and kicked an adult elk to death (with near or zero skill in those). Sure he got a crush in the eye and fractured ribs and some bruises.

And there are also stories of characters who have dropped dead in the similar situation after receiving a single elk kick into their heads - which sometimes leads to discussion if the elks are ridiculously fatal in the game. So...we have to remember that not all the elks in the game behave equally. Some are more wimpy than others.

And I also remember a documentary of some indigenous russian tribe and its two hunters who were hunting a bull elk. The hunt lasted for a day. It was wintertime and the hunters were walking in elk’s tracks. At the last phase they sent their dog after the elk. It chased the elk for some time, and the men walked in the both creatures tracks finally reaching the prey. The bull elk stood still, seemingly exhausted. The dog had been called away. One of the hunters took his knife, walked slowly at the elk which was facing his direction. Some staring, no movement, then he quite slowly thrusted his knife into elk’s throat, and retreated few steps. The elk bled to death pretty much at the same location it had received the blade.

I personally want to have the both kind of elk hunting endings to appear in the game – depending on the many complex and unpredictable factors and mechanics. So, we don’t often balance things based on “this one thing happened once to me”, but always need to look at the big picture.

Let’s look at the suggestions then, which are better to post as one crisp thought rather than a list, but here we go:

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1) I'd like to see elks, especially bull ones, buffed up considerably. It should be madness to go against them practically bare-handed. The reward is anyways a huge amount of meat. More strength, stamina and speed.

We can add more strength, stamina and speed, but that doesn’t increase the fatality of going against them bare-handed. One kick kills are possible for them already. It’s more of a matter how their desperation attack mechanics get triggered. Animals choose to attack based on a lot of factors, with cornered animals the desperation builds a bit bit by bit. What we might adjust would be these mechanics, but it also requires experimenting with numerous game elks. I can play a little to see if there’s something that immediately requires attention. The thing is, who is to say how many of the say 100 elks you get cornered would really choose to attack the pursuer to their fullest potential. 25%, 50%, 100% ? We only know it’s not 0% but not 100% either.

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2) Elk AI: Naturally they should almost always just flee, but when cornered they shouldn't just run circles to exhaustion but stop to rest and threaten the pursuer with a snort and kicking the ground. Fight or flight, not flight until breathless.

Like mentioned sometimes they do threat and attack the pursuer. Desperation attack mechanics are result of many factors. The resting thing is different and tricky one, and it’s cover all the animals and NPCs in the game. It’s true that they sometimes tend to exhaust themselves in situations where they could rest. If it’s made too clever the persistence hunting times are pretty much over.

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3) Enable elk to jump over fences or even break them when fleeing.

If this was added it should be linked to gradually building desperation, and not enable just like that whenever the creature is escaping. I’m fairly sure elk’s primary option would be to try to find a natural route to flee rather than to jump over or break a man-made things. At least in the history there are so many examples of driving wild animals to their death with simple man-made obstacles which could have been broken if the animals just tried. So it’s a decent idea, but it’s not a simple one. I can already see the headlines “Elks are jumping over fences too often.” ;)

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4) Elks are great swimmers irl, ought to be grandmasters in Urw.
It'd be cool to come to a new version of urw and try to exploit this old tactic only to realize the elk just swims away. Of course there should be some reluctance to animals wading and swimming, but it'd be a cool addition.

Good swimming escape wits is indeed something the animals in the game lack. It’s not only about elks. This is something that would be nice, and also interesting to work on. Of course it’s lots of study to figure out how the decision about entering the water should be done. However, the cornering tactics on ice would still be quite usable if hunting with bow and arrows, as relatively slowly swimming elk is a good target.

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5) Urw ungulates (hoofed herbivores) are pretty good to get out of a hole in ice?
I've noticed that ungulates fall through ice easily and get out just as easily.

I don’t have the code at hand now to check, but I’d like to think it’s not just like that thing. At least the mentions about dead elk in the ice are far more frequent. I can check but could this have been situation, animal attributes and water depth related thing..

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6) EDIT: Attack: Trampling. (Allow aggressive elks/big reindeer/beoars to enter a tile with a character, making them 'fallen'.) Hehe. And there it goes...

I’m not too fancy to add new attack mechanics as the wound effects with the current ones are similar,  but truly the big animals could do harm simply by running against the character.

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7) EDIT: Only pits should work for ungulates. This was always odd anyway... It's not in their nature to go into tight spots. I think all ungulates should pass all snares, lever and deadfall traps without harm or trigger.

Yep. Elks getting into such traps isn’t intended but just something that happens due to trap mechanics. There are some other oddities too, but we haven’t found them too critical to fix.
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Buoidda

« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2020, 11:15:40 PM »
Sounds like interesting documentary. Would love to see that.

I can play a little to see if there’s something that immediately requires attention.

We'll at least my characters have thrown a single rock at an uninjured adult elk's body and see it drop unconscious from that far too often. Many times, not just a few. It's probably because of its fatigue. But in that case I wish they could cope with that a bit better.

The thing is, who is to say how many of the say 100 elks you get cornered would really choose to attack the pursuer to their fullest potential. 25%, 50%, 100% ? We only know it’s not 0% but not 100% either.

I wouldn't say fullest potential but enough to get away. This video found by @Brygun captures beautifully how an elk wishes mostly to be away from a human.

https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=6090.0



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6) EDIT: Attack: Trampling. (Allow aggressive elks/big reindeer/beoars to enter a tile with a character, making them 'fallen'.) Hehe. And there it goes...

I’m not too fancy to add new attack mechanics as the wound effects with the current ones are similar,  but truly the big animals could do harm simply by running against the character.

I suggested trampling mainly to give big animals a way to get through the tile character is standing on. This would maybe help alleviate the cornering/blocking escape route situations where players exploit the fact that they can't do that.
Sewn with quill it is. X#X#X#  My craft mod 2.3.6 (released 12th of Jan 2021):  https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=5865.0

Brygun

« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2020, 12:56:14 AM »
About animals being spooked off cliffs:

Smashed in Head Buffalo Jump

https://headsmashedin.ca/

Not only is it a thing its a place.

I've been there. Neat full size wall diorama with buffalos going over.

The movie "The Snow Walker" also has a scene where they stack stones Inukshuk style to guide a herd while only a few people yell and scream to get them started. I tried finding a youtube clip but its showing as blocked, which is sad as its only ~3 min so should be fair use AFAIK.




PALU

« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2020, 10:47:53 AM »
Comment to Buoidda's post:
When you've harassed an animal sufficiently to get it utterly exhausted, yes, any hit that causes even the smallest injury is sufficient to push the animal over the edge into unconsciousness. If you want to avoid that you'd need to introduce some kind of hysteresis when it comes to combining injury and exhaustion penalties, but that might have the side effect of making robber resistance lethal more often than it is now. You might instead try to apply a Will resistance roll and, of course, give animals a Will high enough to resist giving in to unconsciousness reasonably often.