Topic: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?  (Read 6049 times)


LasseFin

« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2018, 07:37:08 PM »
It isn't too difficult to mod your own spears, bows & arrows if you would like to make them the way you want them. But this would only affect the ones you use unless you gave them to companions or dropped them for your enemies to pick up.

I'm of the opinion that it's a toss-up because the much higher velocity of an arrow gives it deeper penetration (generally speaking, not always). Kinetic energy increases with the square of velocity, so when the velocity gets high it will overtake the mass and give greater overall energy. No, I'm not going to get into any calculations to prove anything because I don't have a problem with this in the game. Just food for thought.

While I agree with the conclusion that you arrived at the end which is that they both would be quite lethal and the difference isn't going to be big, I have to stress again that the idea the kinetic energy is representative of something's ability to damage is a very widespread misconception. The idea the damage is somehow proportional to the square of the velocity and linearly with mass doesn't really hold much candle. The purpose of it is to calculate work/energy-transfer between two objects in a purely mathematical way, and it's not for the purpose of calculating the amount of damage a projectile does.

If we assume that by damage, we mean how lethal/incapacitating a projectile is, let's take make an edge case. Imagine an extremely thin needle, so thin you can barely see it that weighs only 0.01 gram, but it is moving extraordinarily fast, a zipping 30000 m/s. It would have a kinetic energy of 4500 joules, which would be significantly above any arrow or javelin or even most bullets (9mm is about 500 joules, 5.56 from a M16 is about 2000 joules.) However, in reality, this 4500 joules super thin needle actually would do almost no damage to a human's body because it's way too thin and way too fast to do anything more than make a teeny tiny hole in the victim's body. Never mind a 9mm or 5.56, it wouldn't even do close to as much damage as an arrow with 30 joules energy which only has 1/150 of the needle's energy.

If we take another edge case, a massive 5000 kg wooden block moving at 0.1 m/s, again, you have a kinetic energy of 2500 joules, but it's moving so slowly it would just push the victim very very slowly, doing absolutely no damage.

The point is, again, to somehow quantify damage of a projectile, you have to get into deformation mechanics, injury biomechanics and a variety of very very complicated physics and medical subjects. The idea that kinetic energy is anything more than an EXTREMELY rough estimation is very doubtful.

But yes, the conclusion I arrive at is same as yours, I don't see any reason to believe why a javelin would be more lethal than an arrow. As long as you perforate a major organ with a large enough hole so that it doesn't function anymore the victim will be incapacitated/die.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 08:25:45 PM by LasseFin »

Dungeon Smash

« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2018, 03:14:53 PM »
A larger head does not = more damage to target, necessarily.  A smaller impact area can often mean more penetration.  I wouldn't be surprised if arrows do more damage, since the function of the bow is to project the arrow much harder than the human arm can throw.  This is why people use bows..... otherwise we would just throw an arrow.  Think about it, or do some research.  Weight and size are certainly not the only factors... the speed at which the projectile is moving is also a factor.  Which hurts more, a bullet fired from a gun at 1000 ft/second, or a baseball hurled by a person?  and yet the baseball weighs far more and is much larger

Aramis

« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2018, 06:46:51 PM »
When you hunt IN REALITY bears with arrows and spear heads the spears have MUCH better performance. They bleed out faster seconds after hit the vein. This is hunters experiences. Sammi is programmer, not hunter.

Erkka

« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2018, 09:02:06 PM »
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This is hunters experiences. Sammi is programmer, not hunter.

Well, then - may I ask if you are a programmer, also?

I mean, from the programmers' point of view, this thread seems to be pretty much based on oversimplified assumptions about how the game mechanics work at the moment. And, the exact mechanics of the simulation aren't described in detail (this is by purpose - we think the immersion is often better when the player can't calculate everything. So it is often better to go by how you'd expect things to be in real life and then hope the simulation got it all simulated.)

Weapon damage values are just one aspect in the calculations the game uses.

For projectiles there are a whole lot of unseen variables affecting what happens. Weight and velocity are there, and so is atmospheric drag - projectile velocity decreases metre by metre because of atmospheric drag.

Aramis

« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2018, 09:50:12 PM »
Learning Java...

In game spears and javelin can be thrown witn strongest men on like 18 meters - Železný thrown 100 meters. 12-14 Girl woulld throw like 30-34 m at least... Spears need more love. STILL....

Oh, and dtto stones and rocks.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 09:53:25 PM by Aramis »

Erkka

« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2018, 10:27:27 PM »
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Learning Java...

Good luck, and enjoy the learning!

Maybe you could use these ponderings as a learning project? Code an object called Creature, and give it methods like "throw", "takeDamage", "bleed" etc. Then code an object Projectile, give it methods like "fly" and "hit", and a range of properties (like weight, blade width, blade sharpness etc). Now you can populate your world with a few creatures, giving them a variety of projectiles. So when a creature throws a projectile, it invokes the projectile fly method. Upon hitting a target the projectile invokes takeDamage of the target creature, and takeDamage method in itself performs various checks, sometimes yielding only a flesh wound, sometimes invoking bleeding. Add and tweak the values of all the variables to see how they play together.

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Železný thrown 100 meters.

I'm not expert in this area, but somehow I'd guess modern sports equipment made of hi-tech materials don't fully compare to iron-age wooden spears and javelins. I'm not a big fan of sports, but I think I've sometimes seen it on TV, and I've seen they run and then throw the javelin, so that the javelin departure velocity is something like running speed + hand movement. These things are often a bit different in the game, I think.

 (Also, the way the game works, it doesn't set any maximum distance for a thrown object. It just starts with the item weight, it's estimated atmospheric drag etc, and initial velocity and aim - and then just runs the simulation to see where the projectile will end. So, if we'd like to make javelins fly farther, we'd either need to decrease their weight, or increase the velocity. Personally, I feel that the velocity delivered by hand movement is now about correctly simulated in the game.)

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Spears need more love.

If you have more detailed wishes in your mind, please tell. Preferably starting a new topic in the suggestions section, as that is where we return to browse new and old threads when needed.

Aramis

« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2018, 11:07:44 PM »
Thanks for interesting ideas and opinions! I highly respect all the time you invested in this projects with Sami!

Well there is one or two ideas - like Snowshoes (already written. Will be more realistic then to find Njerpz without skis in the middle of nowhere + not to speak of fact, that it is easier to make them and walk around then skis... ;)

+ some other ideas too posted: realistic throwing distaneces for all projectiles, scurvy + twig tea, limited amount of branches and twigs, ...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 11:12:05 PM by Aramis »

PALU

« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2018, 11:21:32 PM »
The spears used for spear throwing competition probably have about as much in common with utility spears of the iron age era as skis used in skiing contests have with the skis of that age...

As Erkka pointed out, the competition spears are thrown running (which would definitely scare prey) and aren't aimed at a target, but rather thrown as far as possible in a general direction, which is rather useless in UrW unless "sports" competitions would be implemented. I also suspect those spears aren't thrown to penetrate a target (although someone was killed during a competition by such a spear the other year, I think), but rather to land as flat as possible.

Aramis

« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2018, 11:34:31 PM »
Mens spear for throwing weights 800 g. There is no way in hell some old strong dude throws this just 16-18 meters. dtto 2,5 kg spears

Erkka

« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2018, 11:23:20 AM »
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Mens spear for throwing weights 800 g. There is no way in hell some old strong dude throws this just 16-18 meters

Hmm... I don't know but to me it seems that you are partially ignoring all the fact-based rational and friendly arguments which people have already written in this thread. So it probably won't help if I repeat what has been already said. Instead I try to speak using the same language you've been using this thread. Here goes;

A modern olympic athlete aims to throw a spear as FAR AS POSSIBLE. To do that, they throw a VOLLEY SHOT meaning that the javelin will fly HIGH until it hits the field in almost upright position. They do NOT aim at a target - they merely want to have the javelin land in the legitimate sector, not falling outside the boundary lines.

There is no way in hell in REAL LIFE a REAL HUNTER would want to use a VOLLEY SHOT to hit an animal.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 11:47:07 AM by Erkka »

Aramis

« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2018, 09:33:44 PM »
Your logic is flawed - everything has realistic range except throwign weponz - spears and stones! Even I CAN aim on 30 m with stone to hit head sized target!

Erkka

« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2018, 09:48:27 PM »
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Even I CAN aim on 30 m with stone to hit head sized target!

Hey that is interesting! Next time you try that, could you please measure the weight of the stone you throw? For, UnReal World simulation can't be changed without knowing the exact values needed for variables.

Also, a video could be helpful, so that we could see the throwing technique you are using (are you standing still, or you do you combine your body movement + hand movement to deliver the stone with greater velocity)

Privateer

« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2018, 09:54:05 PM »
Your logic is flawed - everything has realistic range except throwign weponz - spears and stones! Even I CAN aim on 30 m with stone to hit head sized target!
A stone weighs 14 lbs I really doubt you could throw it accurately beyond 3 meters.

Erkka

« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2018, 10:03:07 PM »
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A stone weighs 14 lbs

Yeah, so are the stones in UnReal World. Which happens to be about the same weight as the shot used in olympic shot put (for male competitors). At the moment the world record for shot put is 23.12 metres. So either our Aramis is a secret world champion, or then he is throwing stones which weigh significantly less. But what do I know - my logic is obviously flawed, so I don't even try to understand =) I'm merrily waiting for Aramis to post video footage of throwing stones and accurately hitting targets at 30 m, for I'm a simple man and it is easier for me to comprehend stuff when I see them at work.  :)

Erkka

« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2018, 05:56:37 PM »
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Your logic is flawed - everything has realistic range except throwign weponz - spears and stones! Even I CAN aim on 30 m with stone to hit head sized target!

I agree - my logic is flawed, and arm-chair philosophy is always unrealiable. So I decided to turn to empirical evidence. I gathered some items with corresponding weights as their equivalents in UnReal World. I shot a video of tossing items (both in UnReal World and in the real life).

And I must admit that Aramis seems to be partially right - item throwing distances might use some adjusting. Crude javelins in UnReal World fly too far. Or then it is that UnReal World characters are better at throwing items, having a better technique and giving projectiles greater velocity than I could do.

Here are the results for me and my UnReal World character Pekka;

Crude javelins (3 lbs) : Pekka 26 - 30 metres, Erkka 12 - 15 metres
A rock (1 lbs) : Pekka 17 - 20 metres, Erkka 17 - 20 metres
A stone (14 lbs) : Pekka 12 metres, Erkka 7 metres

(I repeated the real life test three times. For the first two runs I had my stone weight messed up, I was using a 14 kg stone instead of 14 lbs one. On the second test I got javelins to 15 metres. But instead of using that clip in the video I wanted to be precise with my stone weight, so I did a third test.)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 06:18:18 PM by Erkka »