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UnReal World => General Discussion => Topic started by: Aramis on October 19, 2018, 08:26:08 PM

Title: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Aramis on October 19, 2018, 08:26:08 PM
 :o ???
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: LasseFin on October 19, 2018, 08:54:10 PM
They're not. I am almost certain combat calculations take into consideration the weight and the damage number is only one aspect of how much actual damage it does.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Aramis on October 19, 2018, 09:20:13 PM
They are! You shoot much truer arrow it is 8 point damage. You throw javelin = 6 point damage.

Last time I checked, javelin is 2 kg arrow 50 g. I am talking physics here, not combat with bonuses. Study this!

http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: LasseFin on October 19, 2018, 09:41:17 PM
No, I'm telling you that if I remember correctly, the game takes weapon weight into consideration when calculating, rather than just using 6/8 damage, the actual damage is a function of the weight AND the damage numbers.

http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm
And the idea that simple kinetic energy/momentum calculation is equivalent to how damaging a weapon is in real life physics is dubious anyway. It's a massive simplification of a much deeper subject. There's much more at play in there, and to calculate actual damage interaction between two things you'd have to delve deep into deformation mechanics, taking into consideration both object's material toughness/hardness, yield strength etc.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Aramis on October 19, 2018, 09:52:40 PM
Obvious! Spear = wider cutting area + bigger weight = more damage!
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: LasseFin on October 19, 2018, 10:13:22 PM
Obvious! Spear = wider cutting area + bigger weight = more damage!
Again, I remember reading somewhere that the game ALREADY does this.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Aramis on October 19, 2018, 10:16:31 PM
Hmm changelog? I wonder where....

So there is deeper simulation on background? Spear pass better throu materials etc.?

It seems it is related just to damaging other wepons and armors:
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Aramis on October 19, 2018, 10:18:43 PM
found:

   Weapons have the following new properties:
     
        * Impact area

          This refers to size of weapon head/tip/blade that actually touches the target
          upon impact.

        * Strike velocity

          Certain strikes with certain weapons get a velocity boost increasing the force of
          impact they can cause. Swords, clubs with lengthy shafts (e.g. warhammers and maces)
          and axes can be all considered high velocity weapons.

        * Wear/break/fracture levels

          Amount of force needed to wear/break/fracture a weapon.
   
        These all come into play when weapon damage checks are done. The factors are so far
        hidden but you'll soon learn what breaks what and how easily. Most of the weapon
        breakage stuff should be quite obvious as the system tries to come close to sort of a
        realistic weapon damage behaviour.

        Few examples:

        Thrust (point) with a sword concentrates the force on much smaller area than a
        swing (edge). But on the other hand, sword strike has the highest velocity when it's
        used in a slashing movement.

        There is not much difference in impact area if you thrust with a large knife or a spear.
        But spear is heavier and can be thrusted with more velocity and this results in much
        more force being delivered with a spear thrust.

        Maces and warhammers are excellent choices for breaking shields. They have lots of mass
        and a proper swing with them makes the head strike with high velocity. Especially the
        warhammer concentrates lots of force and mass on small impact area.

        All in all, there's now lots of new tactics, factors and weapon usage to consider when
        going to battle. Effective dodging saves weapons, but if your enemy effectively keeps
        blocking your fierce sword strikes it may leave you with damaged weapon. Weapon breakage
        system is also a big balancing addition, and kind of justifies reasonable hoarding of
        metal weapons. Now you can't expect to keep on using your favourite sword again and
        again without possibly wearing it out someday.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: LasseFin on October 19, 2018, 10:22:52 PM
Yes, this game does have a lot of hidden mechanics that's not really documented anywhere.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: LasseFin on October 19, 2018, 10:24:02 PM
found:

   Weapons have the following new properties:
     
        * Impact area

          This refers to size of weapon head/tip/blade that actually touches the target
          upon impact.

        * Strike velocity

          Certain strikes with certain weapons get a velocity boost increasing the force of
          impact they can cause. Swords, clubs with lengthy shafts (e.g. warhammers and maces)
          and axes can be all considered high velocity weapons.

        * Wear/break/fracture levels

          Amount of force needed to wear/break/fracture a weapon.
   
        These all come into play when weapon damage checks are done. The factors are so far
        hidden but you'll soon learn what breaks what and how easily. Most of the weapon
        breakage stuff should be quite obvious as the system tries to come close to sort of a
        realistic weapon damage behaviour.

        Few examples:

        Thrust (point) with a sword concentrates the force on much smaller area than a
        swing (edge). But on the other hand, sword strike has the highest velocity when it's
        used in a slashing movement.

        There is not much difference in impact area if you thrust with a large knife or a spear.
        But spear is heavier and can be thrusted with more velocity and this results in much
        more force being delivered with a spear thrust.

        Maces and warhammers are excellent choices for breaking shields. They have lots of mass
        and a proper swing with them makes the head strike with high velocity. Especially the
        warhammer concentrates lots of force and mass on small impact area.

        All in all, there's now lots of new tactics, factors and weapon usage to consider when
        going to battle. Effective dodging saves weapons, but if your enemy effectively keeps
        blocking your fierce sword strikes it may leave you with damaged weapon. Weapon breakage
        system is also a big balancing addition, and kind of justifies reasonable hoarding of
        metal weapons. Now you can't expect to keep on using your favourite sword again and
        again without possibly wearing it out someday.

Yeah, not sure if it applies to both body damage or only weapon on weapon damage. We'd have to ask Sami to confirm.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Aramis on October 19, 2018, 10:30:02 PM
WEIGHT affecting other factors of fight and damage is news to me!
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: davidor on October 20, 2018, 11:10:58 AM
No it does not. Weapon weight is not a consideration in damage calculation.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Aramis on October 21, 2018, 02:51:01 PM
Do you expect after being hitten in REAL with Spear to be 33 % less deadly as hit with arrow?
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: LasseFin on October 21, 2018, 06:50:23 PM
We actually don't even know how bow/arrow damage works. Because the bow itself also has a damage rating. For example, if you use hunting bow (7 point damage) to shoot arrow (8 point damage), is it 7+8 point damage, or the average like (7+8)/2, or does the arrow only define damage aspect like point/blunt/edge? What if you use shortbow (6 point damage) with blunt arrow (6 blunt damage?) What do you end up with in the end?   :o

Some clarification would be nice.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: JEB Davis on October 21, 2018, 06:52:01 PM
It isn't too difficult to mod your own spears, bows & arrows if you would like to make them the way you want them. But this would only affect the ones you use unless you gave them to companions or dropped them for your enemies to pick up.

I'm of the opinion that it's a toss-up because the much higher velocity of an arrow gives it deeper penetration (generally speaking, not always). Kinetic energy increases with the square of velocity, so when the velocity gets high it will overtake the mass and give greater overall energy. No, I'm not going to get into any calculations to prove anything because I don't have a problem with this in the game. Just food for thought.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: LasseFin on October 21, 2018, 07:37:08 PM
It isn't too difficult to mod your own spears, bows & arrows if you would like to make them the way you want them. But this would only affect the ones you use unless you gave them to companions or dropped them for your enemies to pick up.

I'm of the opinion that it's a toss-up because the much higher velocity of an arrow gives it deeper penetration (generally speaking, not always). Kinetic energy increases with the square of velocity, so when the velocity gets high it will overtake the mass and give greater overall energy. No, I'm not going to get into any calculations to prove anything because I don't have a problem with this in the game. Just food for thought.

While I agree with the conclusion that you arrived at the end which is that they both would be quite lethal and the difference isn't going to be big, I have to stress again that the idea the kinetic energy is representative of something's ability to damage is a very widespread misconception. The idea the damage is somehow proportional to the square of the velocity and linearly with mass doesn't really hold much candle. The purpose of it is to calculate work/energy-transfer between two objects in a purely mathematical way, and it's not for the purpose of calculating the amount of damage a projectile does.

If we assume that by damage, we mean how lethal/incapacitating a projectile is, let's take make an edge case. Imagine an extremely thin needle, so thin you can barely see it that weighs only 0.01 gram, but it is moving extraordinarily fast, a zipping 30000 m/s. It would have a kinetic energy of 4500 joules, which would be significantly above any arrow or javelin or even most bullets (9mm is about 500 joules, 5.56 from a M16 is about 2000 joules.) However, in reality, this 4500 joules super thin needle actually would do almost no damage to a human's body because it's way too thin and way too fast to do anything more than make a teeny tiny hole in the victim's body. Never mind a 9mm or 5.56, it wouldn't even do close to as much damage as an arrow with 30 joules energy which only has 1/150 of the needle's energy.

If we take another edge case, a massive 5000 kg wooden block moving at 0.1 m/s, again, you have a kinetic energy of 2500 joules, but it's moving so slowly it would just push the victim very very slowly, doing absolutely no damage.

The point is, again, to somehow quantify damage of a projectile, you have to get into deformation mechanics, injury biomechanics and a variety of very very complicated physics and medical subjects. The idea that kinetic energy is anything more than an EXTREMELY rough estimation is very doubtful.

But yes, the conclusion I arrive at is same as yours, I don't see any reason to believe why a javelin would be more lethal than an arrow. As long as you perforate a major organ with a large enough hole so that it doesn't function anymore the victim will be incapacitated/die.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Dungeon Smash on November 04, 2018, 03:14:53 PM
A larger head does not = more damage to target, necessarily.  A smaller impact area can often mean more penetration.  I wouldn't be surprised if arrows do more damage, since the function of the bow is to project the arrow much harder than the human arm can throw.  This is why people use bows..... otherwise we would just throw an arrow.  Think about it, or do some research.  Weight and size are certainly not the only factors... the speed at which the projectile is moving is also a factor.  Which hurts more, a bullet fired from a gun at 1000 ft/second, or a baseball hurled by a person?  and yet the baseball weighs far more and is much larger
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Aramis on November 19, 2018, 06:46:51 PM
When you hunt IN REALITY bears with arrows and spear heads the spears have MUCH better performance. They bleed out faster seconds after hit the vein. This is hunters experiences. Sammi is programmer, not hunter.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Erkka on November 19, 2018, 09:02:06 PM
Quote
This is hunters experiences. Sammi is programmer, not hunter.

Well, then - may I ask if you are a programmer, also?

I mean, from the programmers' point of view, this thread seems to be pretty much based on oversimplified assumptions about how the game mechanics work at the moment. And, the exact mechanics of the simulation aren't described in detail (this is by purpose - we think the immersion is often better when the player can't calculate everything. So it is often better to go by how you'd expect things to be in real life and then hope the simulation got it all simulated.)

Weapon damage values are just one aspect in the calculations the game uses.

For projectiles there are a whole lot of unseen variables affecting what happens. Weight and velocity are there, and so is atmospheric drag - projectile velocity decreases metre by metre because of atmospheric drag.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Aramis on November 19, 2018, 09:50:12 PM
Learning Java...

In game spears and javelin can be thrown witn strongest men on like 18 meters - Železný thrown 100 meters. 12-14 Girl woulld throw like 30-34 m at least... Spears need more love. STILL....

Oh, and dtto stones and rocks.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Erkka on November 19, 2018, 10:27:27 PM
Quote
Learning Java...

Good luck, and enjoy the learning!

Maybe you could use these ponderings as a learning project? Code an object called Creature, and give it methods like "throw", "takeDamage", "bleed" etc. Then code an object Projectile, give it methods like "fly" and "hit", and a range of properties (like weight, blade width, blade sharpness etc). Now you can populate your world with a few creatures, giving them a variety of projectiles. So when a creature throws a projectile, it invokes the projectile fly method. Upon hitting a target the projectile invokes takeDamage of the target creature, and takeDamage method in itself performs various checks, sometimes yielding only a flesh wound, sometimes invoking bleeding. Add and tweak the values of all the variables to see how they play together.

Quote
Železný thrown 100 meters.

I'm not expert in this area, but somehow I'd guess modern sports equipment made of hi-tech materials don't fully compare to iron-age wooden spears and javelins. I'm not a big fan of sports, but I think I've sometimes seen it on TV, and I've seen they run and then throw the javelin, so that the javelin departure velocity is something like running speed + hand movement. These things are often a bit different in the game, I think.

 (Also, the way the game works, it doesn't set any maximum distance for a thrown object. It just starts with the item weight, it's estimated atmospheric drag etc, and initial velocity and aim - and then just runs the simulation to see where the projectile will end. So, if we'd like to make javelins fly farther, we'd either need to decrease their weight, or increase the velocity. Personally, I feel that the velocity delivered by hand movement is now about correctly simulated in the game.)

Quote
Spears need more love.

If you have more detailed wishes in your mind, please tell. Preferably starting a new topic in the suggestions section, as that is where we return to browse new and old threads when needed.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Aramis on November 19, 2018, 11:07:44 PM
Thanks for interesting ideas and opinions! I highly respect all the time you invested in this projects with Sami!

Well there is one or two ideas - like Snowshoes (already written. Will be more realistic then to find Njerpz without skis in the middle of nowhere + not to speak of fact, that it is easier to make them and walk around then skis... ;)

+ some other ideas too posted: realistic throwing distaneces for all projectiles, scurvy + twig tea, limited amount of branches and twigs, ...
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: PALU on November 19, 2018, 11:21:32 PM
The spears used for spear throwing competition probably have about as much in common with utility spears of the iron age era as skis used in skiing contests have with the skis of that age...

As Erkka pointed out, the competition spears are thrown running (which would definitely scare prey) and aren't aimed at a target, but rather thrown as far as possible in a general direction, which is rather useless in UrW unless "sports" competitions would be implemented. I also suspect those spears aren't thrown to penetrate a target (although someone was killed during a competition by such a spear the other year, I think), but rather to land as flat as possible.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Aramis on November 19, 2018, 11:34:31 PM
Mens spear for throwing weights 800 g. There is no way in hell some old strong dude throws this just 16-18 meters. dtto 2,5 kg spears
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Erkka on November 21, 2018, 11:23:20 AM
Quote
Mens spear for throwing weights 800 g. There is no way in hell some old strong dude throws this just 16-18 meters

Hmm... I don't know but to me it seems that you are partially ignoring all the fact-based rational and friendly arguments which people have already written in this thread. So it probably won't help if I repeat what has been already said. Instead I try to speak using the same language you've been using this thread. Here goes;

A modern olympic athlete aims to throw a spear as FAR AS POSSIBLE. To do that, they throw a VOLLEY SHOT meaning that the javelin will fly HIGH until it hits the field in almost upright position. They do NOT aim at a target - they merely want to have the javelin land in the legitimate sector, not falling outside the boundary lines.

There is no way in hell in REAL LIFE a REAL HUNTER would want to use a VOLLEY SHOT to hit an animal.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Aramis on November 21, 2018, 09:33:44 PM
Your logic is flawed - everything has realistic range except throwign weponz - spears and stones! Even I CAN aim on 30 m with stone to hit head sized target!
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Erkka on November 21, 2018, 09:48:27 PM
Quote
Even I CAN aim on 30 m with stone to hit head sized target!

Hey that is interesting! Next time you try that, could you please measure the weight of the stone you throw? For, UnReal World simulation can't be changed without knowing the exact values needed for variables.

Also, a video could be helpful, so that we could see the throwing technique you are using (are you standing still, or you do you combine your body movement + hand movement to deliver the stone with greater velocity)
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Privateer on November 21, 2018, 09:54:05 PM
Your logic is flawed - everything has realistic range except throwign weponz - spears and stones! Even I CAN aim on 30 m with stone to hit head sized target!
A stone weighs 14 lbs I really doubt you could throw it accurately beyond 3 meters.
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Erkka on November 21, 2018, 10:03:07 PM
Quote
A stone weighs 14 lbs

Yeah, so are the stones in UnReal World. Which happens to be about the same weight as the shot used in olympic shot put (for male competitors). At the moment the world record for shot put is 23.12 metres. So either our Aramis is a secret world champion, or then he is throwing stones which weigh significantly less. But what do I know - my logic is obviously flawed, so I don't even try to understand =) I'm merrily waiting for Aramis to post video footage of throwing stones and accurately hitting targets at 30 m, for I'm a simple man and it is easier for me to comprehend stuff when I see them at work.  :)
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Erkka on November 25, 2018, 05:56:37 PM
Quote
Your logic is flawed - everything has realistic range except throwign weponz - spears and stones! Even I CAN aim on 30 m with stone to hit head sized target!

I agree - my logic is flawed, and arm-chair philosophy is always unrealiable. So I decided to turn to empirical evidence. I gathered some items with corresponding weights as their equivalents in UnReal World. I shot a video of tossing items (https://youtu.be/yBH1KUb_m2k) (both in UnReal World and in the real life).

And I must admit that Aramis seems to be partially right - item throwing distances might use some adjusting. Crude javelins in UnReal World fly too far. Or then it is that UnReal World characters are better at throwing items, having a better technique and giving projectiles greater velocity than I could do.

Here are the results for me and my UnReal World character Pekka;

Crude javelins (3 lbs) : Pekka 26 - 30 metres, Erkka 12 - 15 metres
A rock (1 lbs) : Pekka 17 - 20 metres, Erkka 17 - 20 metres
A stone (14 lbs) : Pekka 12 metres, Erkka 7 metres

(I repeated the real life test three times. For the first two runs I had my stone weight messed up, I was using a 14 kg stone instead of 14 lbs one. On the second test I got javelins to 15 metres. But instead of using that clip in the video I wanted to be precise with my stone weight, so I did a third test.)
Title: Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?
Post by: Brygun on November 27, 2018, 07:30:18 PM
Watched the video. Well done Erkka  8)

At one job I took lunch breaks in a wooded lot and threw a javelin link "slender trunk" at the hollow of tree stump. Eventually broke the tree stump making the top of it fall toward me... which landed on my coat. So I was fairly close. My observations on Erkka's video are:

- In UrW standing still is still in a 2 x 2 m square so I think taking one step for a throw would be okay

- A practiced javelin thrower and/or a straighter javelin might not turn sideways so easy and get maybe 50% more range

- As mentioned in the thread effective range for causing injury (which is another game mechanic) is less than max range.

>>>

To one of the posters as might have been noticed Unreal World defines a rock as 1 lb and a stone as 14 lb. In real life we might swap the terms. For the discussion it would be best to use the same terms.

>>>

The Odyssey of the Greek and Trojan wars does include them throwing rocks/stones at each other as a common battle technique.