Topic: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?  (Read 3202 times)


Aramis

« on: October 19, 2018, 08:26:08 PM »
 :o ???

LasseFin

« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2018, 08:54:10 PM »
They're not. I am almost certain combat calculations take into consideration the weight and the damage number is only one aspect of how much actual damage it does.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 08:58:15 PM by LasseFin »

Aramis

« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2018, 09:20:13 PM »
They are! You shoot much truer arrow it is 8 point damage. You throw javelin = 6 point damage.

Last time I checked, javelin is 2 kg arrow 50 g. I am talking physics here, not combat with bonuses. Study this!

http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 09:23:41 PM by Aramis »

LasseFin

« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2018, 09:41:17 PM »
No, I'm telling you that if I remember correctly, the game takes weapon weight into consideration when calculating, rather than just using 6/8 damage, the actual damage is a function of the weight AND the damage numbers.

http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm
And the idea that simple kinetic energy/momentum calculation is equivalent to how damaging a weapon is in real life physics is dubious anyway. It's a massive simplification of a much deeper subject. There's much more at play in there, and to calculate actual damage interaction between two things you'd have to delve deep into deformation mechanics, taking into consideration both object's material toughness/hardness, yield strength etc.

Aramis

« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2018, 09:52:40 PM »
Obvious! Spear = wider cutting area + bigger weight = more damage!

LasseFin

« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2018, 10:13:22 PM »
Obvious! Spear = wider cutting area + bigger weight = more damage!
Again, I remember reading somewhere that the game ALREADY does this.

Aramis

« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2018, 10:16:31 PM »
Hmm changelog? I wonder where....

So there is deeper simulation on background? Spear pass better throu materials etc.?

It seems it is related just to damaging other wepons and armors:
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 10:19:59 PM by Aramis »

Aramis

« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2018, 10:18:43 PM »
found:

   Weapons have the following new properties:
     
        * Impact area

          This refers to size of weapon head/tip/blade that actually touches the target
          upon impact.

        * Strike velocity

          Certain strikes with certain weapons get a velocity boost increasing the force of
          impact they can cause. Swords, clubs with lengthy shafts (e.g. warhammers and maces)
          and axes can be all considered high velocity weapons.

        * Wear/break/fracture levels

          Amount of force needed to wear/break/fracture a weapon.
   
        These all come into play when weapon damage checks are done. The factors are so far
        hidden but you'll soon learn what breaks what and how easily. Most of the weapon
        breakage stuff should be quite obvious as the system tries to come close to sort of a
        realistic weapon damage behaviour.

        Few examples:

        Thrust (point) with a sword concentrates the force on much smaller area than a
        swing (edge). But on the other hand, sword strike has the highest velocity when it's
        used in a slashing movement.

        There is not much difference in impact area if you thrust with a large knife or a spear.
        But spear is heavier and can be thrusted with more velocity and this results in much
        more force being delivered with a spear thrust.

        Maces and warhammers are excellent choices for breaking shields. They have lots of mass
        and a proper swing with them makes the head strike with high velocity. Especially the
        warhammer concentrates lots of force and mass on small impact area.

        All in all, there's now lots of new tactics, factors and weapon usage to consider when
        going to battle. Effective dodging saves weapons, but if your enemy effectively keeps
        blocking your fierce sword strikes it may leave you with damaged weapon. Weapon breakage
        system is also a big balancing addition, and kind of justifies reasonable hoarding of
        metal weapons. Now you can't expect to keep on using your favourite sword again and
        again without possibly wearing it out someday.

LasseFin

« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2018, 10:22:52 PM »
Yes, this game does have a lot of hidden mechanics that's not really documented anywhere.

LasseFin

« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2018, 10:24:02 PM »
found:

   Weapons have the following new properties:
     
        * Impact area

          This refers to size of weapon head/tip/blade that actually touches the target
          upon impact.

        * Strike velocity

          Certain strikes with certain weapons get a velocity boost increasing the force of
          impact they can cause. Swords, clubs with lengthy shafts (e.g. warhammers and maces)
          and axes can be all considered high velocity weapons.

        * Wear/break/fracture levels

          Amount of force needed to wear/break/fracture a weapon.
   
        These all come into play when weapon damage checks are done. The factors are so far
        hidden but you'll soon learn what breaks what and how easily. Most of the weapon
        breakage stuff should be quite obvious as the system tries to come close to sort of a
        realistic weapon damage behaviour.

        Few examples:

        Thrust (point) with a sword concentrates the force on much smaller area than a
        swing (edge). But on the other hand, sword strike has the highest velocity when it's
        used in a slashing movement.

        There is not much difference in impact area if you thrust with a large knife or a spear.
        But spear is heavier and can be thrusted with more velocity and this results in much
        more force being delivered with a spear thrust.

        Maces and warhammers are excellent choices for breaking shields. They have lots of mass
        and a proper swing with them makes the head strike with high velocity. Especially the
        warhammer concentrates lots of force and mass on small impact area.

        All in all, there's now lots of new tactics, factors and weapon usage to consider when
        going to battle. Effective dodging saves weapons, but if your enemy effectively keeps
        blocking your fierce sword strikes it may leave you with damaged weapon. Weapon breakage
        system is also a big balancing addition, and kind of justifies reasonable hoarding of
        metal weapons. Now you can't expect to keep on using your favourite sword again and
        again without possibly wearing it out someday.

Yeah, not sure if it applies to both body damage or only weapon on weapon damage. We'd have to ask Sami to confirm.

Aramis

« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2018, 10:30:02 PM »
WEIGHT affecting other factors of fight and damage is news to me!

davidor

« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2018, 11:10:58 AM »
No it does not. Weapon weight is not a consideration in damage calculation.

Aramis

« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2018, 02:51:01 PM »
Do you expect after being hitten in REAL with Spear to be 33 % less deadly as hit with arrow?

LasseFin

« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2018, 06:50:23 PM »
We actually don't even know how bow/arrow damage works. Because the bow itself also has a damage rating. For example, if you use hunting bow (7 point damage) to shoot arrow (8 point damage), is it 7+8 point damage, or the average like (7+8)/2, or does the arrow only define damage aspect like point/blunt/edge? What if you use shortbow (6 point damage) with blunt arrow (6 blunt damage?) What do you end up with in the end?   :o

Some clarification would be nice.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 07:22:39 PM by LasseFin »

JEB Davis

« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2018, 06:52:01 PM »
It isn't too difficult to mod your own spears, bows & arrows if you would like to make them the way you want them. But this would only affect the ones you use unless you gave them to companions or dropped them for your enemies to pick up.

I'm of the opinion that it's a toss-up because the much higher velocity of an arrow gives it deeper penetration (generally speaking, not always). Kinetic energy increases with the square of velocity, so when the velocity gets high it will overtake the mass and give greater overall energy. No, I'm not going to get into any calculations to prove anything because I don't have a problem with this in the game. Just food for thought.