Be ready

[Bert Preast]

Bert:
“Allow mass immigration” isn’t really a fair sentiment here. During USSR, Ukraine didn’t have to say if some Russians moved in or not.

That's a fair point, but it changes nothing.  Historic transfers of populations have happened, and you either reverse them or you deal with the situation as it exists now.

[Steel_tear]

Thats fine Bert Preast, its only natural to draw parallels to something local, but those parallels are not correct and I'll try to explain the situation. Its pretty complex, so please bear with me.

Ukraine has not adopted Spanish method with Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. That statement is grossly incorrect so lets break it down. Firstly, lets take Crimea. Its native population is not either russian, nor Ukrainian, its Crimean Tatars or Qyrymli as they call themselves. They are a unique, turkic speaking peoples that live on the peninsula for a millennia and have a very interesting geneses, including Greek, Italian, Kipchak, proto-Slavic and various turkic ethnicities. Like I said, these guys go back into the mists of time, but one thing of note that is relevant is their Giray dynasty. You can read more on this here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Khanate
To keep this relatively short, Ill just say that Girays were owners of what is now russia. Their tsars paid them yearly taxes, provided conscripts when asked and in short, russian tsardom was a vassal of Giray's Crimea as early beginning of 18th century. After collapse of remnants of Golden Horde's legacy, Peter 1 (also known as the blood-drinker by others and "great" by russians) was able to defeat them and from then onward, Qyrymli peoples were under constant genocide efforts of different magnitude, culminating in deportation of their full nation from their home and ancestral lands all over the Red Empire. Under the theat of death, they were forbidden to come back home. Only after Ukraine became an independent state, what was left of Qyrymli peoples came back home. You can read more on this here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars

After the deportation, regular russians were imported in Qyrymli's (and other undesirable's) houses and we ended up having the situation where "most of the people speak Russian, vote Russian, and are Orthodox Christians". and even then, they never really voted russian. In Crimea, a few pro-russian political parties did exist, but they never got anything more than a few % points during all recorded history. Here is an example of that from 2012. The article is quite old and available only in orcish, but you can google translate it into English if you'd like to read it.
https://daily.rbc.ua/rus/show/vybory-2012-v-krymu-minimum-shansov-dazhe-dlya-prorossiyskih-17102012131000
The 1995 incident you mention below is very interesting indeed. Meshkov's attempted coup was just one of many attempts by orcish FSB to take control of the peninsula using political or/or other means. Here is another interesting case you might want to read and I can think of plenty more smaller, but similar cases.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Tuzla_Island_conflict

Anyway, long story short, if anyone has any moral rights to Crimea, its Qyrymli's people. Every major city,even mountain and every river has a name in their language, they know that land and they have no other home. Crimea was theirs for centuries before orcs came and will it be theirs again, after orcs are gone and forgotten. Today however, their population is tragically small and even if they wanted, they can not (and could not, prior to 2014) form a state. Practically from day one of Ukraine's independence, they are represented in Ukrainian parliament, have their cultural and ethnic rights protected and have been one of the strongest opposition of orcish invasion politically and after 2014, military. If in future, their numbers grow to the point of them being able to form and maintain a state, while I do not speak for Ukraine, me personally, and many many other Ukrainians would support them in that.

Donbass and broadly speaking Eastern parts of Ukraine are very different from Crimea in many aspects, although some things are the same. Even today, if one is to travel outside of major cities into the countryside, the claim that they speak orcish becomes clearly wrong. At worst, they speak this "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surzhyk", and in many cases, you'll hear decent Ukrainian in most of the villages/smaller cities. The reason for that is twofold. First is long standing and systemic suppression of Ukrainian language by the orcs. You can read more on this here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Ukrainian_language_suppression
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Ukraine

Second is the hunger of 1932-33. You can read more on this here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

While wiki is not being decisive on this topic, I have relatives who lived through this and at least to me, the situation is clear that this was indeed yet another genocide, but putting that aside, one of the results of that atrocity was major depopulation of Eastern Ukraine and just like with Crimea, re-population of that land with ethnic orcs pretty much right after the hunger ended. Those Ukrainians that were able to get away or survived, were deported and forbidden to come back to their homes and those that tried, were mostly sent to Siberia for life. Around late 1960's the ban was lifted and a lot of eastern Ukrainians were able to come back home, but many werent or didnt. Thus, Eastern Ukraine where "most of the people speak Russian, vote Russian, and are Orthodox Christians" were created. Over time, majority of imported orcs assimilated culturally, but due to suppression of Ukrainian language, large cities retained orcish as their main form of communication. Smaller cities, where re-population happened slower but naturally, didnt and does not have that problem.

So as you can see, the parallel with Catalonia and Spain does not work for either Crimea, nor Eastern Ukraine.
---
Now, lets address that orc's comment: yes, I am in Canada and by the looks of it, will be here for next couple of months yet. My recovery is taking longer than expected, but the doc is saying that probably my shoulder should be mostly (there is a decent chance of full recovery) operational by late Autumn. I am not a citizen of Ukraine, so I am free to come and go, so after I got a piece of shrapnel in me, I went back to Canada to take care of that - I did pay my taxes, and plenty of them, in Canada for many years, so might as well get some use out of that money. Rest assured though, once I am healed up, I am going back to my unit and hopefully we'll make plenty more very good russians. If however my injury will prevent me from actively participating in extermination of the invading orcs, I still can be useful by going back to what I was doing from 2014 - providing support and supplied to those who can. You really should've stayed far, far away from us, we will kill every single one of your invading bastards.

loool, when it's in Ukraine, it's Holodomor. When it's everywhere in Russia, it's just a famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921–1922.

So, you decided to use the Putin's move and you started since 15 century. But at the same time, please, answer some questions:

1. Why did people why people from Crimea supported Russian and they are continuing support this?
2. Do you remember any demonstration in Kiev against shelling Donbass since 2015 to 2022? Ukranians claimed them underhumans.
3. Why did Bandera become a national hero of Ukraine? When, for example, for others he's a Nazi and a war criminal?
4. Why did people why people from Donbass supported Russian and they are continuing support this?

5. Why does Ukraine have Azov battalion? And this supported by Ukraine. And this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Korotkikh is in charge in there. Google his name and the first thing you will find - his ziga lol (he escaped from Russia, because he killed some Asian migrants also... https://tesak.baza.io/)

6. You write Russia with a small letter, like your nazi friends in Ukraine.

[JP_Finn]

That's a fair point, but it changes nothing.  Historic transfers of populations have happened, and you either reverse them or you deal with the situation as it exists now.

If the residents in the contested areas want to Russian nationals, they should move to Russia. I wasn’t happy in Finland so I emigrated. I didn’t tell everyone else around me that my yard should be UK, later US. That’s just insanely selfish attitude.

[Leon_ARS]

А если жителей спорных территорий насчитывается 90%?

What if 90% of the inhabitants of the disputed territories are?

[JP_Finn]

Move. Or start a referendum for separation; don’t go calling/supporting forceful takeover/occupation/invasion.

[Bert Preast]

If the residents in the contested areas want to Russian nationals, they should move to Russia. I wasn’t happy in Finland so I emigrated. I didn’t tell everyone else around me that my yard should be UK, later US. That’s just insanely selfish attitude.

Same as me, when I emigrated to Spain. 

The difference though, is my native language was not Spanish, I did not live in a Spanish speaking part of England, and I did not live in a part of England that consistently voted for pro-Spanish political parties.

[Dark Art]

Spain/Cataluna is of course not an exact parallel, because exact parallels do not exist.  I would like the Catalans to secede, because then Spain might have a proper government rather than one propped up by various communist separatists.  You may find you prefer how Ukraine is governed when the war ends, and you don't have to appease those who kept voting pro-Russian anymore.  Living in a country governed for and by the people who want to live there is, I think, better than living in a bigger country full of malcontents.

Your history lesson tells me nothing I didn't know, and I didn't go deep on it for a reason.  What matters is what the people of a region want now, not what went on there a century or more ago.  Crimea and Donbass do not wish to remain a part of Ukraine, and I doubt there is anything you can do now to change their minds.  Aside from ethnically cleansing or killing them, of course.

Congratulations on the audacious if unwise drone strikes on the Russian airfields the other day, by the way.  Superbly executed.  You're still going to lose, though.

Thats quite unfortunate, but also, quite predictable. Still, I've tried to explain the reasons behind this invasion the best I could. Sapienti sat.

No Bert Preast, we are not going to lose, because its not a game for us. This is not something we can either win or lose at. We will either exist as a nation and ethnics group, or be destroyed and I assure you, that we have no intentions of being destroyed. Moreover, if you think that the fact that orcs have nukes and Ukraine does not will stop us from resisting - you are wrong. The choice is really quite simple for us: resist and maybe live, or surrender and with 100% certainty follow the path of those Ukrainian nationals from Izium, Kherson, Bucha, Irpin, Mariupol and countless smaller villages and towns that orcs managed to occupy and that is to end up in a shallow ditch and have your kids sent to "re-education" camps. No thank you.

Now, lets talk about "That's a fair point, but it changes nothing.  Historic transfers of populations have happened, and you either reverse them or you deal with the situation as it exists now." I assure you, the situation will be dealt with and after the orcs are beaten back, those who actively or passively supported the invaders will leave with then, those who didnt care either will, will continue not to care and about 8 millions of displaced Ukrainian nationals will come back to their homes in eastern Ukraine and Crimea. I think, tolerance to anything orcish with be virtually non-existent, so within 10-15 years, anyone left with any pro-orcish sentiment will either leave or die off due to their very advanced age.

Still, if you strongly support any community, whatever their reason may be, to declare themselves independent, even if they displaced the native population by either mass immigration, genocide or forced deportation - go ahead and allow those large pockets of Pakistani and Indian nationals in UK to separate and declare themselves to be parts of their mother nations. I am sure UK as a whole and you personally would only support that. Right?

Note: Nothing against either Pakistani or Indian nationals, just using you guys as an example here. I know you guys are more civilized and cultured (very different from Europeans, but culture is culture) than orcs and would never even dream of doing something like that.

P.S. Orcs, dont waste your breath. The time for talks and arguments between us have passed. I have only one thing to tell you - come and die or shut your yap trap and hide. We will kill every single one of your invading bastards.

[Leon_ARS]

Забавный бандеровец. Ты либо дурак, либо провокатор. Судя по твоему возрасту, ты мог бы получить образование в Украинской ССР - но это было бы правдой, если бы ты жил в этом регионе, который принадлежал СССР, а ранее Российской империи. Вполне возможно, что ты потомок беглецов после Второй мировой войны, тогда понятно, почему ты изучаешь историю в Википедии. Да, с вами никто не спорит, мы уже недалеко от Сум и зашли в Днепропетровскую область. Если на то будет воля Божья и решение Верховного главнокомандующего, то город Днепропетровск (Екатеринослав) будет нашим, кстати, в качестве урока истории: он был основан 20 мая 1787 года императрицей Екатериной II.

Funny Bandera guy. You're either a fool or a provocateur. Judging by your age, you could get an education in the Ukrainian SSR - but this would be true if you lived in this region, which belonged to the USSR, and earlier to the Russian Empire. It is quite possible that you are a descendant of the post-World War II fugitives, then it is clear why you are studying history on Wikipedia. Yes, no one is arguing with you, we are already near Sumy and entered the Dnipropetrovsk region. If it is God's will and the decision of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, then the city of Dnepropetrovsk (Yekaterinoslav) will be ours, by the way, as a history lesson: It was founded on May 20, 1787 by Empress Catherine II.

[Leon_ARS]

Move. Or start a referendum for separation; don’t go calling/supporting forceful takeover/occupation/invasion.

So there were referendums: 2014 in Crimea, in 2022 in Novorossiya. By the way, you can search for ZOiS (Zentrum für Osteuropa- und internationale Studien) reports on the legitimacy and honesty of the results of the referendum in Crimea.

[Bert Preast]

Still, if you strongly support any community, whatever their reason may be, to declare themselves independent, even if they displaced the native population by either mass immigration, genocide or forced deportation - go ahead and allow those large pockets of Pakistani and Indian nationals in UK to separate and declare themselves to be parts of their mother nations. I am sure UK as a whole and you personally would only support that. Right?

Note: Nothing against either Pakistani or Indian nationals, just using you guys as an example here. I know you guys are more civilized and cultured (very different from Europeans, but culture is culture) than orcs and would never even dream of doing something like that.

P.S. Orcs, dont waste your breath. The time for talks and arguments between us have passed. I have only one thing to tell you - come and die or shut your yap trap and hide. We will kill every single one of your invading bastards.

You do your cause no favours by constantly referring to the Russians as orcs.  It makes you sound unhinged.

I have no doubt that parts of England will become Islamic enclaves within my lifetime.  Already the country is close to how Northern Ireland was in the 1980's.  Our government are either halfwits or corrupted.  I hate the idea, but you know what?  I see it as preferable to having Islamists in our government, and Islamic parties in our elections.  Better a clean break, and cede territory.  The other option is to live with civil strife, constrained liberties and terrorism. 

Was it Sun Tzu who pointed out that territory may be regained, but men cannot? 

[Dark Art]

Oh thats quite alright, I have no illusions about my mental state. That being said, I wonder what you'd call them If you'd seen what they do to civilians, especially young women, or those dudes who actively refuse to cooperate with them. And when I say "seen it", I dont mean in a video. I mean seen it with your own eyes, sensed the smell of the bodies and tried to wash off the body fluids off your hands after handling something that was a human before being killed by these damned orcs. Yes, I wonder what name you'd come up with after that.

Sun Tzu is wonderful reading, but I am not worried about it. Like I said, before full scale orcish invasion, about 8 millions of Ukrainians fled eastern Ukraine and Crimea to other parts of the country. After the land is free from occupation, they will come home.

Oh and there was no referendum in Crimea. Without any warning and/or declaring war, first orcs invaded Crimea, blocked completely stunned and bamboozled local Ukrainian forces (we did not consider them our enemies before 2014 and no one really expected this, not even military), then their special forces units have taken by force the Crimean parliament, at the gun point gathered the MPs and other elected officials and staged their little farce. In short, they pretty much did the very same thing Hitler did in Austria 1938. Ever since 2014, Ukrainian nationals and Crimean Tatars/Qyrymli are being constantly harassed, arrested and kidnapped. Again, same thing like in Austria after Hitler's "referendum". So just like Austria, eventually Crimea will be liberated and things will go back to normal. Those who supported the orcs and have committed crimes will be legally proceeded and those who didnt care either way, will continue not to care.

[Leon_ARS]

Couch potato warrior 

[Bert Preast]

Have any of us actually fought in Ukraine?  I haven't.

[Bert Preast]

Oh thats quite alright, I have no illusions about my mental state. That being said, I wonder what you'd call them If you'd seen what they do to civilians, especially young women, or those dudes who actively refuse to cooperate with them. And when I say "seen it", I dont mean in a video. I mean seen it with your own eyes, sensed the smell of the bodies and tried to wash off the body fluids off your hands after handling something that was a human before being killed by these damned orcs. Yes, I wonder what name you'd come up with after that.

Sun Tzu is wonderful reading, but I am not worried about it. Like I said, before full scale orcish invasion, about 8 millions of Ukrainians fled eastern Ukraine and Crimea to other parts of the country. After the land is free from occupation, they will come home.

Oh and there was no referendum in Crimea. Without any warning and/or declaring war, first orcs invaded Crimea, blocked completely stunned and bamboozled local Ukrainian forces (we did not consider them our enemies before 2014 and no one really expected this, not even military), then their special forces units have taken by force the Crimean parliament, at the gun point gathered the MPs and other elected officials and staged their little farce. In short, they pretty much did the very same thing Hitler did in Austria 1938. Ever since 2014, Ukrainian nationals and Crimean Tatars/Qyrymli are being constantly harassed, arrested and kidnapped. Again, same thing like in Austria after Hitler's "referendum". So just like Austria, eventually Crimea will be liberated and things will go back to normal. Those who supported the orcs and have committed crimes will be legally proceeded and those who didnt care either way, will continue not to care.

I saw such things in the Balkans.  I was 108 HVO, and fought in Operation Koridor.  Where did you see such things, and what unit were you with and in what capacity?  I thought of the Serbs as orcs, back then, though I had no idea what an orc was.  All I knew was that I was on the side of the underdog, so I was in the right.  I was a fool.

Our press always talk of the "full scale invasion".  But let's be honest.  It's not, is it?

It's odd how in the territories Russia occupies, there is so little partisan activity.  Is it because the people are cowed by the deranged brutality of the invader?  Or is it because they are okay with being invaded, actually?

[Dark Art]

UFL as part of UGF, a medevac driver. Released after getting wounded and becoming unfit for duty. I'll keep my personal info quite vague - the city I live in has a large orcish population and I'd rather not wake up to find my house burning.

Oh it is a full scale invasion. If you recall what happened in 2022 you'll have your answer, you can still find those maps from 2022. In short, they tried to attack from ever side and got their arses handed over to them. Lost a crazy amount of equipment and considerable numbers of boots, most of the territory they managed to grab during initial push, regrouped, started mobilization to replenish their losses, refocused and resumed the invasion with everything they got, except for the nukes.

I know its not my place, but I'll say it nonetheless: Milosevic had to be stopped. I agree that they way it was done was very far from ideal, but he had to be stopped. Regardless whether you want it or not, you have my respect for standing up for what you thought was right. I sincerely hope you'll find your peace with your past.

I dont think we'll know what kind of resistance/partisan activities are there for as long as this war is going on. Keep in mind that eastern Ukraine is mostly as flat as a table, with very few places to hide, so the usual "hit and run" tactics would be virtually useless there. Plus modern day warfare is not really partisan-friendly. So pretty much only thing a partisan can do is sabotage and there is PLENTY of that. That being said, there is always something blowing up and orcish COs are being made into good russians on very regular basis. And that is what we know only from mass media or enraged local orcs themselves. How much of it is assisted, coordinated or even done by resistance we wouldnt know now (and maybe even ever) and I think that is how it should be. Still, you can look up marches in Kherson right after it was occupied with thousands upon thousands protesting against the invasion. Most of those people were quickly tracked down and killed/jailed, so while it was quite a patriotic spectacle, I wish they havent done that.