Topic: Modding in valuable metals (Gold, Silver, Copper) for trade.  (Read 1994 times)


Acolyte

« on: January 20, 2019, 06:28:08 AM »
Just to break off from the BAC mod so as not to derail it.  ;)

Anyone with any thoughts?

   - Shane

Brygun

« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2019, 03:33:06 PM »
There is value for trade versus value of use.

A very common mistake in roleplaying games is to assume that higher costing materials perform better. Gold is the worst example. Weapons and armor made of gold are heavy, soft and ineffective. Iron carburized* into steel is tough.

Gold being soft is what makes it able to take a decorative shape.

Gold has another decorative property in that it stays shiny. It doesn't oxidize like iron turning into rust or copper getting the green layer.

Modern day gold also has use for its conductivity which combined with the non-rusting make it useful in the sockets, connectors and plugs where two electronics interface.

A random idea put forward was to have a gold pot. The pot itself would weigh more than an iron pot for some holding contents. It would look fancy, trade well but perform poorly.

* carburized : to have a small amount, 1-3%, of carbon worked into the material. Thus a steel sword is still 97% iron.

Signatus

« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2019, 05:43:39 PM »
Ok, so I made a simple add-on with copper gold and silver and some example items, and here's what I got:

Code: [Select]
[SUBMENU_START:Precious]

.Harvest copper ore. "Hunting Horn" [effort:2] [phys:arms,hands,stance] *COMMON* /40/ [noquality] [patch]
{[NEARBY_TILE:river]} 'Near rapids' 
{[TERRAIN:hill]} 'mountainous terrain'
{*hammer}
[NAME:ore of copper]
[MATERIAL:stone]
[WEIGHT:1.2]
[PRICE:0]
[TILEGFX:bc-orepiece]

.Harvest silver ore. "Hunting Horn" [effort:2] [phys:arms,hands,stance] *COMMON* /50/ [noquality] [patch]
{[NEARBY_TILE:river]} 'Near rapids' 
{[TERRAIN:hill]} 'mountainous terrain'
{*hammer}
[NAME:ore of silver]
[MATERIAL:stone]
[WEIGHT:0.06]
[PRICE:0]
[TILEGFX:bc-orepiece]

.Harvest gold ore. "Hunting Horn" [effort:2] [phys:arms,hands,stance] *COMMON* /1h/ [noquality] [patch]
{[NEARBY_TILE:river]} 'Near rapids' 
{[TERRAIN:hill]} 'mountainous terrain'
{*hammer}
[NAME:ore of gold]
[MATERIAL:stone]
[WEIGHT:0.0025]
[PRICE:0]
[TILEGFX:bc-orepiece]

// roasting

.Roasted precious ore. "Hunting horn" *COMMON* /1/ \3\ [noquality] [patch:50]
{Ore of*} #0.06#  [remove] [patchwise] [name:Roasted ore of %s] [naming:last word] 'Copper/silver/gold ore'
//{Firewood} (4) [patchwise] [ground] '+to pile with ore'
//{Firewood} (4) [patchwise] [ground] '(You need to light them on fire)'
[MATERIAL:stone]
[WEIGHT:0.05]
[PRICE:0]
[TILEGFX:bc-orepiece]

// smelting
// improved method

.Smelt precious ore. "Hunting horn" [effort:2] [phys:arms,hands,stance] *TIMBERCRAFT* %-20% -M- /1/
{Roasted ore of*} #1#  [remove] [noquality] [name:Bloom of %s] [naming:last word] 'Roasted ore'
[MATERIAL:iron]
[WEIGHT:1]
[PRICE:0.01]
[TILEGFX:bc-ironbloom]

// Previous method

.Smelt copper ore. "Hunting horn" [effort:2] [phys:arms,hands,stance] *TIMBERCRAFT* %-20% -M- /1/
//{Bloomery*} [noquality] [ground] 'Bloomery furnace'
//{Fire} [noquality]
{Roasted copper ore} #1#  [remove] [noquality] 'Roasted iron ore'
//{Charcoal} (8) [remove] [noquality] [ground] '+to mix with ore'
//{Bellows} '+for keeping the heat up'
//{Shovel} [noquality] '+for tending the process'
[NAME:Copper bloom]
[MATERIAL:iron]
[WEIGHT:1]
[PRICE:0.01]
[TILEGFX:bc-ironbloom]

.Smelt silver ore. "Hunting horn" [effort:2] [phys:arms,hands,stance] *TIMBERCRAFT* %-20% -M- /180/
{Bloomery*} [noquality] [ground] 'Bloomery furnace'
{Fire} [noquality]
{Roasted silver ore} #0.05#  [remove] [noquality] 'Roasted iron ore'
{Charcoal} (8) [remove] [noquality] [ground] '+to mix with ore'
{Bellows} '+for keeping the heat up'
{Shovel} [noquality] '+for tending the process'
[NAME:Silver bloom]
[MATERIAL:iron]
[WEIGHT:0.05]
[PRICE:1]
[TILEGFX:bc-ironbloom]

.Smelt gold ore. "Hunting horn" [effort:2] [phys:arms,hands,stance] *TIMBERCRAFT* %-20% -M- /1/
//{Bloomery*} [noquality] [ground] 'Bloomery furnace'
//{Fire} [noquality]
{Roasted gold ore} #0.05#  [remove] [noquality] 'Roasted iron ore'
//{Charcoal} (8) [remove] [noquality] [ground] '+to mix with ore'
//{Bellows} '+for keeping the heat up'
//{Shovel} [noquality] '+for tending the process'
[NAME:Gold bloom]
[MATERIAL:iron]
[WEIGHT:0.05]
[PRICE:10]
[TILEGFX:bc-ironbloom]

// coinage testing

.Generic coin.  "Hunting horn" [effort:3] [phys:hands] *CARPENTRY* [noquality] /5/
//{*forge*} [noquality]
{Bloom of*} #0.02# [name:%s coin] [naming:last word]
{*iron hammer}
[TYPE:valuable]
[WEIGHT:0.02]
[MATERIAL:iron]
// COPPER
[PRICE:0.1]
// SILVER
//[PRICE:1]
// GOLD
//[PRICE:20]

// Previous method for coins or crafts

.Copper coin. (64) "Hunting horn" [effort:3] [phys:hands] *CARPENTRY* [noquality] /5/
//{*forge*} [noquality]
{Copper bloom}
{*iron hammer}
[TYPE:valuable]
[WEIGHT:0.015]
[MATERIAL:iron]
[PRICE:0.1]

.Silver coin. (4) "Hunting horn" [effort:3] [phys:hands] *CARPENTRY* %20% /3h/
{*forge*} [noquality]
{Silver bloom}
{*iron hammer}
[TYPE:valuable]
[WEIGHT:0.012]
[MATERIAL:iron]
[PRICE:1]

.Gold coin. (2) "Hunting horn" [effort:3] [phys:hands] *CARPENTRY* [noquality] /4/
//{*forge*} [noquality]
{Gold bloom}
//{*iron hammer}
[TYPE:valuable]
[WEIGHT:0.018]
[MATERIAL:iron]
[PRICE:20]

// weapon testing

.Precious spearhead.    "Hunting Horn"  [effort:3] [phys:arms,hands,stance] *CARPENTRY* /6h/ 
{Bloom of*} [remove] [name:Spearhead of %s] [naming:last word]
//{*billet}  [remove] 'Good billet for the edges'
//{*billet}  [remove] [noquality] 'Second billet for shape'
//{*forge*} [noquality] 'Forge or furnace'
//{Charcoal} (4) [remove] [noquality] [ground]
//{Bellows}
//{*anvil*} [ground] 'Anvil nearby'
//{*hammer} 'Hammer'
//{* tub of water} [noquality] [ground] 'Tub of water for quenching'
[MATERIAL:iron]
[WEIGHT:1]
[PRICE:0]
[TILEGFX:bc-spearhead]

.Precious spear. "Spear" [effort:1] [phys:arms,hands] *CARPENTRY* /3h/
{Spearhead of*} [remove] [name:%s spear] [naming:last word]
{Staff} [remove]
{Knife}
{Whetstone} [noquality] '+for final sharpening'
//original spear price is 43 arrows or so
// COPPPER
//[WEIGHT:5]
//[BLUNT_ATTACK:4]
//[POINT_ATTACK:6]
//[PRICE:30]
// SILVER
//[WEIGHT:6]
//[BLUNT_ATTACK:5]
//[POINT_ATTACK:5]
//[PRICE:60]
// GOLD
//[WEIGHT:7]
//[BLUNT_ATTACK:3]
//[POINT_ATTACK:6]
//[PRICE:100]



[SUBMENU_END:Precious]

Note that I fixed harvesting to hill + river for testing, couldn't find the original mountain + rapids adjacent to each other. This could be reduced to 1 with the use of optional nearby tiles, perhaps, but I'm not sure. They could also be removed if we create ore "flowers" with an appropriate rarity blooming in mountains or caves.

Roasting and smelting is condensed into a single recipe each. This could be combined with the iron ones, so it's elegantly solved.

I also have the material specific smelting I was using before, allowing more control.

I just created the generic coin, which will become copper/silver/gold coin depending on the material. The pricing and WEIGHT can be adjusted according to the comments below it. This can be applied to any craft I guess

I also have the material specific versions of the coins in particular.

Lastly I made an example spearhead an spear which can be made from these various materials. Again, the properties of the spear can be adjusted according to the material used. It will be iron spear, gold spear, silver spear, etc. The values are mostly examples.

Bert Preast

« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2019, 07:39:39 PM »
As I understand it, bronze weapons were still highly prized during the iron age because bronze can hold a sharper edge than iron can.  The reason iron took over was because it was much easier (and therefore cheaper) to produce and maintain.  I don't know if it is possible to mod how quickly weapons degrade, but if it is then a bronze weapon should be superior to iron but more expensive and degrade faster.  Gold and silver weapons are almost useless as weapons, but they look cool and right through history to the present day people have been happy to pay a lot to look cool   :D

Ingots for trading is a great idea!

Acolyte

« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2019, 11:52:06 PM »
One aspect of precious metals is that they were rare. I mean really rare. Items weighing in at the pounds level would be vanishingly rare for silver and almost non-existent for gold. Copper is much more common and would still be used for all kinds of utility items such as pots and tools like knives - particularly if alloyed into bronze. Anything to be used as a weapon would very rarely be made of anything but iron/steel.

Really, copper and bronze are the metals that would still be in significant use in the iron age. A "decorative" copper spear point is quite possible as a badge of office or some such but a silver or gold one? Not too likely and massively valuable if they did exist. A bronze spear point might actually still be used - just don't hit anything made of iron or steel.

General rule throughout much of history is copper/bronze:silver is about 1:20 and silver:gold is about the same 1:20. So a gold precious spear would be 400 times the cost of the copper one and that's if there is enough gold around to make one.

   - Shane

Signatus

« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2019, 12:11:52 AM »
General rule throughout much of history is copper/bronze:silver is about 1:20 and silver:gold is about the same 1:20. So a gold precious spear would be 400 times the cost of the copper one and that's if there is enough gold around to make one.

Which is why gold and silver should be really hard to find in the first place, perhaps making you lose weeks/months to get anything worth it.

Perhaps a whole spear made of gold is too much, but it only really needs the spearhead considering the recipe using a staff. A sword would probably take years of mining and finding ore, but maybe a small knife or a ring/bracelet would be an easier and more realistic project.

Copper and bonze also melt at lower temperatures, making it easier to smelt.

Iron mining is currently simplified as well. Usually you'd have to actually find a place with ore, not just any puddle. Iron sure is common, but you still have to find it

Acolyte

« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2019, 02:40:16 AM »
A spear head is still a lot of gold - we're talking a pound or two. Keep in mind that all the gold ever found throughout history worldwide would fit into a couple of swimming pools. There just isn't that much of it, let alone in easily smeltable form. Most large  - beyond ring size - gold objects are hollow, merely coated with gold, are not pure gold or a combination of any/all of these. It's a pretty rare thing for something to be solid 24k gold.

Rings and bracelets would certainly be made, and maybe a very small knife. Gold used as decoration, however, is another matter. Gold inlay is fairly old and could be done to the head and shaft using relatively small amounts to radically increase the value of the spear. In fact, the better weapons makers might just do this to make more of a profit. The same is true of silver and gemstones.

Silver OTOH is more doable. A silver spear head would be quite valuable and you could make valuable things like knives out of it. In terms of functionality neither would be very good, but they'd function as status symbols. Expensive, but doable. Jewelry is already in the game and would absolutely be around.

   - Shane

Signatus

« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2019, 03:53:13 AM »
A spear head is still a lot of gold - we're talking a pound or two. Keep in mind that all the gold ever found throughout history worldwide would fit into a couple of swimming pools. There just isn't that much of it, let alone in easily smeltable form. Most large  - beyond ring size - gold objects are hollow, merely coated with gold, are not pure gold or a combination of any/all of these. It's a pretty rare thing for something to be solid 24k gold.

You are right, but it would also be available as rare import, which isn't in the game yet.

Quote
Rings and bracelets would certainly be made, and maybe a very small knife. Gold used as decoration, however, is another matter. Gold inlay is fairly old and could be done to the head and shaft using relatively small amounts to radically increase the value of the spear. In fact, the better weapons makers might just do this to make more of a profit. The same is true of silver and gemstones.

I think inlaying would be fairly simple with an optional tag in the main weapon recipes

Quote
Silver OTOH is more doable. A silver spear head would be quite valuable and you could make valuable things like knives out of it. In terms of functionality neither would be very good, but they'd function as status symbols. Expensive, but doable. Jewelry is already in the game and would absolutely be around.

It also has kind of a mystical ring to it, being used as sacrifice in a ritual. But getting silver only from silver rings from traders is tough. It shouldn't be easy, and it's something for a mid-late game goal depending on finding a supply of silver

Signatus

« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2019, 04:58:47 AM »
I researched a bit and here's a table on bronze and silver values in vanilla:

Code: [Select]
WEIGHT NAME VALUE VAL/LB
<--------------><----------------------><------><------>
0.006623 bronze bezel ring 192 28 989
0.01766 bronze ball pendant 240 13 590
0.01766 bronze bear pendant 360 20 385
0.046358 bronze bracelet 224 4 831
0.0883 small bronze brooch 160 1 812
0.13245 bronze flower-orn. comb 320 2 416
0.13245 bronze horse-orn. comb 384 2 899
0.1766 bronze brooch 280 1 585
<--------------><----------------------><------><------>
0.006623 silver ring 320 48 316
0.03532 silver bird bracelet 520 14 772
0.04415 silver sun-symbol pend. 640 14 496
0.055188 silver chain bracelet 680 12 321

lowest values: 0.1286 bronze to silver
highest(rings): 0.5999 bronze to silver
pends(bear): 1.4062
pends(no bear): 0.9375
bracelets: 0.3270
averages: 1.1062
avg bronze: 24 863
avg silver: 22 476

They're ordered by weight

Bronze loses a lot of value per pound in the bigger objects, though that's to be expected. The pendants are pretty much the same (with the bronze bear one being more valuable than the silver), but bracelets seem to fall between the ratio of the highest and lowest values.

On average bronze actually wins, but the sample is quite small.

I was able to make ore appear in mountain and rivers in shallow water as well as in the crags. Even with commonness at 1 I still have trouble finding copper, let alone the tin at 0.1. Eventually it's possible to find it, though.

Here's some example code of how to do all this. First there's the harvesting, which might be done as herbs:

Code: [Select]
.Alluvial ore of copper. (1) [root]
//[NAME:Ore of copper]
[TILEGFX:shr-noaidis]
[SIZE:L]
[SPROUT:1]
[MATURE:90]
[WITHER:12]
[REGION:eastern western northern southern]
[TERRAIN:river ford]
[SYMBIOSIS:shallow_water]
[POPULATION:15]
[FREQUENCY:40]
[COMMONNESS:1]
[HERB_COMMON:eastern western northern southern]
[HERB_KNOWN:all]
[EFFECT_RAW:deadly_poisonous]
// commonness should be 0.2 of iron

.Rocky ore of copper. (1) [root]
//[NAME:Ore of copper]
[TILEGFX:shr-noaidis]
[SIZE:L]
[SPROUT:1]
[MATURE:90]
[WITHER:12]
[REGION:eastern western northern southern]
[TERRAIN:cliff mountain river ford]
[SYMBIOSIS:rocky]
[POPULATION:15]
[FREQUENCY:40]
[COMMONNESS:1]
[HERB_COMMON:eastern western northern southern]
[HERB_KNOWN:all]
[EFFECT_RAW:deadly_poisonous]
// commonness should be 0.2 of iron

// TIN

.Alluvial ore of tin. (1) [root]
//[NAME:Ore of tin]
[TILEGFX:shr-bogiron]
[SIZE:L]
[SPROUT:1]
[MATURE:90]
[WITHER:12]
[REGION:eastern western northern southern]
[TERRAIN:river ford]
[SYMBIOSIS:shallow_water]
[POPULATION:40]
[FREQUENCY:80]
[COMMONNESS:0.1]
[HERB_COMMON:eastern western northern southern]
[HERB_KNOWN:all]
[EFFECT_RAW:deadly_poisonous]

.Rocky ore of tin. (1) [root]
//[NAME:Ore of tin]
[TILEGFX:shr-bogiron]
[SIZE:L]
[SPROUT:1]
[MATURE:90]
[WITHER:12]
[REGION:eastern western northern southern]
[TERRAIN:cliff mountain river ford]
[SYMBIOSIS:rocky]
[POPULATION:40]
[FREQUENCY:80]
[COMMONNESS:0.1]
[HERB_COMMON:eastern western northern southern]
[HERB_KNOWN:all]
[EFFECT_RAW:deadly_poisonous]

This is based on some small thread regarding the sufficiency mod and has some of caethan's values. The only way for it to both appear on rocks and shallow water was to have two types with different symbiosis. The roots, though they mostly don't rot, can be prepared to a stackable, uniformized and usable form by this recipe:

Code: [Select]
.Prepare ore. "Hunting horn" [effort:0] *TIMBERCRAFT* [noquality] /1/ [patch:50]
{* ore of*} #0.1# [patchwise] [remove] [name:Ore of %s] [naming:last word] 'Of same ore'
[MATERIAL:iron]
[TYPE:valuable]
[WEIGHT:0.1]

// smelting
// improved method

.Smelt precious ore bloom. "Hunting horn" [effort:2] [phys:arms,hands,stance] *TIMBERCRAFT* %-20% /1/
{Ore of*} #1#  [remove] [noquality] [name:Bloom of pure %s] [naming:last word] 'Raw ore'
[MATERIAL:iron]
[TYPE:valuable]
[WEIGHT:0.5]
[PRICE:0.01]
[TILEGFX:bc-ironbloom]

.Smelt bronze bloom. "Hunting horn" [effort:2] [phys:arms,hands,stance] *TIMBERCRAFT* %-20% /1/ [patch:8]
{* of pure tin} #0.125#  [remove] '1 tin'
{* of pure copper} #0.875#  [remove] '7 copper'
[NAME:Bloom of bronze]
[MATERIAL:iron]
[TYPE:valuable]
[WEIGHT:1]
[PRICE:0.01]
[TILEGFX:bc-ironbloom]

.Cast an ingot of metal. "Hunting horn" [effort:2] [phys:arms,hands,stance] *TIMBERCRAFT* /1/
{* of pure*} #1# [name:Ingot of pure %s] [naming:last word]
[MATERIAL:iron]
[TYPE:valuable]
[WEIGHT:1]
[PRICE:0.01]
[TILEGFX:bc-ironbloom]

.Copper ring. "Bronze bezel ring" [effort:2] [phys:hands] *CARPENTRY* /1/
{* of pure copper} #0.007# [remove]
[PRICE:12]

.Bronze bezel ring.  [effort:2] [phys:hands] *CARPENTRY* /1/
{* of pure bronze} #0.007# [remove]

.Silver ring. [effort:2] [phys:hands] *CARPENTRY* /1/
{* of pure silver} #0.007# [remove]

.Iron ring. "Bronze bezel ring" [effort:2] [phys:hands] *CARPENTRY* /1/
{* of pure iron} #0.01# [remove]
{* of pure *} #0.004# [remove] [optional] [name:%s-ornamented iron ring] [naming:last word]
[PRICE:0.1]

.Decorate spear with metal. "Spear" [effort:2] [phys:hands] *COMMON* %10% /1/
{Spear}
{* of pure *} #0.2# [remove] [optional] [name:%s-decorated spear] [naming:last word]
[PRICE:50]

The use of pure is to distinguish workable materials from which to get the last name out of. So both blooms of pure copper or ingots of pure cooper could be used. It could be changed to a different word too.

The rings are a few ideas on how to implement it, simplified. The iron ring can be made solo or with ornaments. Spears can be decorated and remain spears, while having a chance to improve quality. If used in the recipe of a Spear itself, it can simply add some flair. You can mark your home-made items in iron as well, so it's not unusable.

Let me know what you think. I think the problem here is adjusting the rarity so that it's a rarity/chance finding the ores while still being able to use them without being over/underpowered. You might stumble upon a deposit and mark it on your back from wherever, maybe even make an expedition there on purpose. This ain't easy to find.

As for iron, I'm not sure how it'd work. Having to look for iron rather than just go to the local lake/mire is interesting and might make iron mining less boring. The time gained by gathering rather than mining could be compensated in the preparing step.

Brygun

« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2019, 10:10:02 PM »
There videos on youtube from "Thegn Thrand" for sure on testing bronze weapons. There may also be some from Schollagladitoria and Shadiversity.

Bronze can get a sharp edge yet the edge on the softer metal is more frail. Since it doesn't need to be heated as high to smith bronze weapons also tend to bend during the impact levels of combat.

UrW deals with weapon breakage by reducing quality factors of weapons.

We dont have a way of, afaik, to tell the game to accelerate the rate of decay of the weapon. For example parrying with a bronze sword vs an iron Nerjpez scimitar is going to wear out the bronze faster.

I would therefore suggest considering giving bronze weapons either or both:
- a penalty to crafting so they tend to come out "rough" and thus closer to broken
- reduced weapon impact stats,  1 -2 points off to estimate the average reduced state


>>>>

There was overlaps of iron and bronze. At that time the availability and skills in iron were rare. In UrW the iron availability is very much there.

>>>>

In terms of making the bronze with its lower heating points you may consider leaving out the bloomery. You could check on bronze making to see if they needed charcoal with its higher burns or if they could use just wood. Likewie with a bellows.

Copper smelting may have been discovered from large and long lasting hearth fires (cooking and heating a home) being able to melt the green copper out of malachite rocks.

>>>>

Remember that Bronze needs copper and tin. So you should source in tin somehow.




Brygun

« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2019, 04:09:52 AM »
Had a quick look at links in the BAC thread on the copper.

If you havent thought of it yet...

Suggest copper making be about pouring so using clay to simulate the mold. Clay is already in BAC.

Bronze likewise might use clay molds. Copper + Tin + heat + mold

Weapons could require whetstones and maybe hammers to improve the edge

Signatus

« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2019, 04:59:23 AM »
Note that Tin is already in the recipes I included before. It's rarer than copper, but when found it is more densely populated. You only need 0.125 lbs of Tin for each lb of Bronze, though.

Had a quick look at links in the BAC thread on the copper.

If you havent thought of it yet...

Suggest copper making be about pouring so using clay to simulate the mold. Clay is already in BAC.

Bronze likewise might use clay molds. Copper + Tin + heat + mold

Weapons could require whetstones and maybe hammers to improve the edge

That's a good idea! I was also wondering why there is no crucible for the iron recipes... How can I (s)melt iron without a container? Is my fireplace covered in iron plating by now? Clay seems like a good material for both a mould and a crucible

Brygun

« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2019, 05:31:11 PM »
Warning... I digress... on why there is no iron crucible

In the size scale of the iron work here it is shaping by hammering rather than pouring into a mold. Iron/steel poured is actually going to be weaker vs the folding/twisting used to create layers of different properties.

In the iron creation a bloomery is used to heat the ore to bring out impurities while the iron is at its welding temperature will bond iron particle to iron particle. It takes additional pounding on the hot iron to drive out random impurities. Optionally then to add a controlled amount of carbon (an impurity) to get a useable large piece of steel.

Some iron work, like some Norse swords, would  take two bars of iron (relatively pure iron) and two bars of steel (iron with that controlled carbon) as a starter. Then the bars are heated while they are twisted together. Then fold over. Then twist and fold. Repeat as desired. The result is a very beautiful oscillation of dull and shiny throughout the blade. The dull areas are "soft" iron which has give and bend to absorb energy while the shiny "hard" steel areas keep the shape from deflecting to much.

Axes are typically made of shaping of soft iron head by hammering to shape. A handle hole is made by splitting the hot iron with a cool wedge then expanding and forming by hammering. One method of making the cutting edge is to make a thin narrow bit of steel which, as impurity/alloy control is difficult, is easier to make. The iron head on the cutting side is notched open. The steel is inserted. The iron notch sides are then heated and hammered onto the steel. The iron notch material and the iron in the steel will weld together.


Meanwhile....

Copper and bronze can be decently made by pouring into a mold.

Which compared to the iron methods for a sword or axe head described above is much easier.

Coming out of the mold their might be some follow up work like trimming with a {Knife} <Small knife>. That could be coded into the mold using recipe.

The mold could be considered a "held" or "freeze" item so that it isn't consumed in making the object in the mold. I requested that code option in the suggestion forums for things like this.

Copper and bronze melt, and thus weld, at lower temperatures. That is why mankind discovered them first.

Iron took the technology of charcoal and bellows to work. To process the iron ore you needed to get to super high temperatures which is why you see the bloomery, charcoal and bellows

The copper/bronze work at lower temperatures should mean leaving out charcoal. You could use firewood instead. This means the characters don't put those days into charcoal making.


For a supply of molds I might suggest

Axe head mold
Sword mold
Arrow head mold (makes 5 at a time)
Spear head mold
Decoration mold (makes 2 at a time)

Im not sure about whether the rings even would require a mold as the decoration mold for brooches could easily fit some circles for rings... or you would problaby be better off casting a wire which is then cut and bent into rings.


Note: I think it might be best to limit the bronze axe to just the hand axe type. The more specialized axes benefit from iron's properties to do their task as a heavy hitter or by allowing a carving axe to be thin yet still strong.


Signatus

« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2019, 06:58:09 PM »
That's a good point indeed. However, finer crafting would probably still need some pouring. As you mentioned, creating a thin line and then bending it like a torc. You won't need a ring's hardness in combat, so it's not an issue. It's probably impossible to hammer iron into a small ring, lol

Here's some iron age jewelry for ideas:













https://blog.britishmuseum.org/how-do-you-put-on-a-torc/

Some of these exceptional torcs were made by twisting wires of metal. However, the curator mention that by hand it wouldn't be a one person task. Making wires by hammering is fucking hard...

So stuff like those torcs or bracelets would be easier if you could mould a thin wire. The pendants are really easy to make, though, and would not require that.

Twisting the metal seems to be a common motif at that time. I'm still baffled by the precision and craftsmanship on some of these items...

Brygun

« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2019, 07:24:48 PM »
It's probably impossible to hammer iron into a small ring, lol

Wire making is done by drawing. This meaning to pull the metal through a hole. Then pull through a smaller hole. Repeat until you get the size of wire desired. To do this you would the board with holes and pliers.

BAC has lead in for doing this but I didn't put iron wire in (yet) as the only current use is chainmail. I would need to consume one of the two free menus for chainmail recipes and I want those available for custom modding.

A quick lead in set of recipes based on BAC would be something like

Pliers -> already in BAC

.Pull board. "Board"
{Knife} '+shaping and large pull hole'
{Auger} '+medium pull hole'
{Medieval drill} '+small pull hole'


.Pull wire.
{Iron shape} [remove] '+ingot into rough bar shape'
{Pull board} '+has different holes'
{Pliers} '+to grip during pulling'


Note that pulling, AFAIK, doesn't  heat the metal. Its raw muscle power. The board holes probably wear out over time too.

edit:
I might put the pull board in BAC as a "Holed board". I think carpentry has the space.

edit 2:
Magic naming coding might allow the .Pull Wire. to be coded to accept any sort of metal so long as it was a 'iron shape' 'bronze shape' 'X shape' etc to become 'X wire'

« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 07:29:56 PM by Brygun »