Topic: Modding in valuable metals (Gold, Silver, Copper) for trade.  (Read 2145 times)


Signatus

« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2019, 07:57:35 PM »
It's probably impossible to hammer iron into a small ring, lol

Wire making is done by drawing. This meaning to pull the metal through a hole. Then pull through a smaller hole. Repeat until you get the size of wire desired. To do this you would the board with holes and pliers.

BAC has lead in for doing this but I didn't put iron wire in (yet) as the only current use is chainmail. I would need to consume one of the two free menus for chainmail recipes and I want those available for custom modding.

While that's a really good idea, I researched a bit and it seems that we only have a definite timeline for wire-drawing iron after the 12th century: http://www.forth-armoury.com/research/wire/authentic_wire.htm

The following article seems to go further into this, showing that we have no proof that even the greeks and romans drew wire with plates, rather than hammering them: https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2FBF03215438.pdf

It also includes some pictures at the end of how gold wires look with some different techniques, and describes about 4 of them. The more malleable metals would be easier to use with some of the techniques than iron, though. Regardless of the material, this doesn't look or sound like an easy endeavour

Brygun

« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2019, 03:20:06 AM »
Good news,

BAC Ironworking has ALOT of room in the menu.

Ironworking could be changed to Metalworking to include precious metals from here.

Assuming you are down with that eventual inclusion for now I'd prefer we talk about the metalworking transition here. Mostly as we will go through a lot of recipe versions, updates and fixes that the general BAC users don't need just yet.

Naming magic might help keep the recipe count low.

Iron still varies needing charcoal and high heat.

Based on the new docs just post, amazing ones they are, Im pondering iron wire coming though a twist then pull process. Recipes being something like:

Carpentry:
Add .Pull Board.

Ironworking:

.Iron spindle.
{Iron shape} '+a chunking starter'
{* pliers} '+to twist tighter'
{* hammer}  '+hammer twist'
{charcoal}

.%name wire.
{%name spindle}
{Pull board} '+smoothing holes'
{Iron pliers} '+for gripping'


There would also need to be copper and maybe bronze versions of pliers.

I might have to rename the existing pliers. I think the pliers need to be similiar in strength to the material being pulled. For example bronze pliers might struggle with iron. (open to debate)



Brygun

« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2019, 02:57:04 AM »
Just realized an issue on the first proposed .Pull Board. recipe. To make the auger and drill you need iron. So that .Pull Board. would only be fine for iron wire. If you wanted a bronze-only workshop the pull correction would have to be done differently.

Maybe still a pull board but using an axe and knife to make holes.

Or we do the non-iron wires without a pull board.


Signatus

« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2019, 04:38:25 AM »
I think that some tools might have to be made out of iron for a few reasons. One of the "advantages" of iron is that it has a higher melting point, so you can use it for tools that will be handling high temperatures (tongs, perhaps?). That might not be the most relevant point, but iron is also harder, so it might also be better for things like the pliers you mentioned. I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make, though.

Stuff like anvils are almost surely best made out of iron, no? I figure that hammering iron in a copper or bronze anvil might eventually deform it and diminish its quality, but again I'm not really a blacksmith.

Is the iron shape representing the "strip of metal" mentioned in the docs? I was imagining a "shape" as a square, but I guess it could be anything depending on what a recipe needs. It might only be important to determine the weight, either of the shape itself or what the spindle requires.

If we want to have the Pull board degrade, we could make it use up something like #0.01# (or any appropriate amount for the effect we want) per Wire made. This way you would eventually have to make a new one, since repairing is not an option.

As for the naming, I suggest making the ingredient-dependent product's recipes called .Metal X. to standardize it. Stuff made of iron could keep their own recipes if practical and if there's enough space, though that might not be the case, if only to use more fuel.

I think the Pull board is supposed to be made of iron, though. That document mentions "iron plates" a few times, even from the Viking times. I'm, again, not sure if a bronze draw-plate would be capable of making iron wire, but it very well could since it'd still require quite the pull of a wire to crack a copper or bronze plate, no?

Just realized an issue on the first proposed .Pull Board. recipe. To make the auger and drill you need iron. So that .Pull Board. would only be fine for iron wire. If you wanted a bronze-only workshop the pull correction would have to be done differently.

I'm not sure what the Spindle is supposed to represent here, but I figure this could be solved with something like:

.Metal shape.
{* of pure*} [name:Shape of %s]

.Metal spindle.
{Shape of *} [name:Spindle of %s] '+a chunking starter'
{* pliers} '+to twist tighter'
{* hammer}  '+hammer twist'
{charcoal}

.Metal wire.
{Spindle of *} [name:%s wire]
{Pull board} '+smoothing holes'
{Iron pliers} '+for gripping'

And voilá! This will work for any metal, but might not accurately represent iron's need for charcoal or other metal's lack of need for it.

Edit: that last name tag might be [name:Wire of %s] if we want to re-use the wire's material in other recipes' products

I guess there could also be the method of hammering the metals into wire, with a skill penalty making it lower quality, though the longer time and effort to do it should suffice.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 06:04:20 AM by Signatus »

Brygun

« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2019, 07:11:24 PM »
Regarding BAC Iron Shape it was a generic recipe to assume making a billet (likely a rectangular shape) into "something" without quite being a finished product. This could be the S shape for pliers or a shape ready for use in wire working.... or a shape for decorative scroll work on a door.

>>>>>
On "spindle"

Name can be changed

For the general metal working I was thinking of the spindle being the twisted shape, before smoothing it through a hole.

This would be the type showing 4 corners making spiral twirls around the metal. These being pointy edges until smoothed by pulling.


>>>>>

On the material for the pull board: good question. I could be assuming wood simply by the name board. It might have to be metal. Wood is strong in compression and pulling wire through compresses the edge of the wood so it has some strength there. Again, not sure.

>>>>

On pliers:
I was thinking that we would have a bronze-smith who doesn't make any iron so would need bronze pliers, or at least a crude non-iron pliers.

So we don't intended to have an only bronze-smith then we go with the iron pliers.

Technically I can "pull" a wire by hand or with torque tricks but pliers would certainly help


>>>>

I like tte way to have the pull board degrade with small material consumption.



« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 07:15:44 PM by Brygun »

Brygun

« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2019, 09:13:00 PM »
a modern day making own wire for jewellry making

mentionds gold etc can be pulled by hand

Block shown is of hard steel


http://www.danielicaza.com/2011/03/second-entry-how-to-make-wire-manually.html

>>>>
example of modern day steel wire drawing block

IIRC good for gold, silver, brass, copper


https://www.jewelerstoystore.com/Drawplate-p/d68-1.htm
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 09:14:59 PM by Brygun »

Brygun

« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2019, 09:54:29 PM »

>>>

Signatus, this is in my view, your mod so some of the decisions fall to you. Im providing input and joyful discussion.

>>>
checked on compressive strengths

Wood 6K - 7k psi
Iron around 34-36 psi

So they probably did make pull blocks out of metal.

Certainly the wooden pull board if used would need to deplete some wood to reflect damage.

>>>

Metal shape was meant as an universal intermediate stage so we could have a metal pull block made by using that


Making the holes need a rethink. I honestly thought (seems wrong now) the pull blocks were wood boards.

>>>


But pull blocks probably should be either iron or bronze.

The soft metal wires could use {*pull block} and iron wire using {Iron pull block}



>>>

I do like the idea of having a bronze-only tech stage








Signatus

« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2019, 08:56:39 PM »
Sorry for disappearing, but I'm dealing with some stuff in real life and I'm barely getting out of bed. I'll try to follow up when I have the energy for it!

Brygun

« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2019, 08:31:10 PM »
Stay healthy first.

Thanks for letting me know.