Topic: tanning terminology + rinsed should not spoil  (Read 447 times)


Buoidda

« on: October 23, 2020, 12:03:21 PM »
I have had several thoughts about the tanning of skins in this game for a long time. Here's my suggestions on how to make the tanning feel more right - at least in my experience.

I updated this post after I wrote a suggestion about curing:
https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=5837.msg15649#msg15649

1) Rename the 'rinsed' * skin to 'hard' * skin and remove it's ability to spoil. Rotting at this already-tanned stage doesn't make any sense to me. Also the 'hard' adjective describes better what is expected to do next. Also IRL this is how we refer to skins at this stage.

2) Remove the need for water for cleaning skins. When I do that IRL, don't require water.

3) Curing should be immediately available for fresh skins, not after laborious cleaning (fleshing), which is easier on dry skin. (The membranes break off more easily on dry skin.) Moved to the curing thread.

4) Rename all fur-bearing fresh skins to 'pelt' (ie: "cleaned ermine pelt") with the exception of:

5) Rename all big fur-bearing skins to 'hide' (of the size available to use in kota construction, for example, so 8lbs in my understanding)

6) Dehairing seems to have an odd step after it. A dehaired skin is not dry, but very wet. It doesn't need to be soaked, quite the opposite. The membranes are scraped off or at least broken when they are dry. A thorough wash and salt water are beneficial after dehairing, to slow the rotting which caused the dehairing in the first place. I'd alter the soaking step to a wash and dry. (I'm aware of many methods of tanning, but in this rubbing method the game uses this would be appropriate.)

7) Make dehairing process rename previous 'pelts' and 'hides' to 'skins':

Like so:
Spoiler: examples • show

fresh snake skin
(wait too long and it becomes spoiled snake skin)
(optional step: cured snake skin)  no spoilage
clean fleshed snake skin
tanning snake skin
hard snake skin                    no spoilage
snake leather                      no spoilage

fresh hare pelt
(wait too long and it becomes spoiled hare pelt)
(optional step: cured hare pelt)   no spoilage
clean fleshed hare pelt
tanning hare pelt
hard hare pelt                     no spoilage
hare fur                           no spoilage
 
fresh hare pelt
(wait too long and it becomes spoiled hare pelt)
(optional step: cured hare pelt)   no spoilage
dehaired hare skin
cured hare skin                    no spoilage
clean fleshed hare skin
tanning hare skin
hard hare skin                     no spoilage
hare leather                       no spoilage

fresh elk hide
(wait too long and it becomes spoiled elk hide)
(optional step: cured elk hide)    no spoilage
clean fleshed elk hide
tanning elk hide
hard elk hide                      no spoilage
elk fur                            no spoilage

fresh elk hide
(wait too long and it becomes spoiled elk hide)
(optional step: cured elk hide)    no spoilage
dehaired elk skin
cured elk skin                     no spoilage
clean fleshed elk skin
tanning elk skin
hard elk skin                      no spoilage
elk leather                        no spoilage

8 ) No cutting weapon needed in dehairing.
9) Tanning by smoking, in the same style as smoking meat.

My reasoning apart from what already been said:
a) one could instantly recognize which animal skins become leather and which fur
b) currently one cannot distinguish a dehaired "tanning elk skin" and a fur bearing "tanning elk skin" before the whole tanning process is finished
c) curing is not very useful nor realistic atm. Suggestions would help that. Moved to the curing thread.

d) using 'hide' only for bigger skins is more proper English in my understanding. English is not my mothertongue, but I understand all these terms are a bit vague and interchangeable at least to some degree. I would love the get some native English feedback on this. Anyway, IMHO it would be good for the game interface to establish a terminology anyway to easily distinguish between fur-bearing and non-fur-bearing skins and their states of progress.

EDIT: after reading this: https://www.newlifeonahomestead.com/tan-hides-using-traditional-cheap-easy-methods-part-2/ I find using the 'fleshing' term is indeed more appropriate
« Last Edit: December 21, 2020, 09:23:29 AM by Buoidda »
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JP_Finn

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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2020, 06:12:39 PM »
I like the suggestion.

But the terminology is odd*, as pelt, skin, hide are used in full synonym manner most of the time. I.e. Collins dictionary, UK English, refers to ‘pelt’ as both ‘skin of a fur-bearing animal’, also as ‘hide of an animal, stripped of hair and ready for tanning’. Collins’, US English, agrees with your usage.  :D
Other dictionaries contradict this and also themselves.

*not in the suggestion, but in general.

Buoidda

« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2020, 07:36:42 PM »
I made some updates on the thread starter... smoking clean skins would be cool!

Now I'm speculating ways to make the tanning more complicated like I suggested in the curing topic.

One solution would be to force the character reiterate between cleaning (näskäys, fleshing, hmm fleshed ermine pelt  ???) and tanning steps on random occasion, more likely on less skilled tanners. Practically needing a successfull skill check to continue to the next phase. Player would get messages like "You notice you need to scrape the flesh side of the skin some more before you can continue tanning."  OR "You feel the skin needs some more rubbing with tanning material."

IMHO, this would bring great crafting feel to the pretty straightforward hideworking we do now, things not always going cleanly with only the fat (braaaaiiinss) of the animal. Of course this would also require bark to be harvestable (albeit more slowly, like IRL) all year.

Negligible suggestion: I'd add the ability to dehair ready-made fur too, because it is possible, just needs longer soaking. This especially if generated kota covers remain as tanned furs.

@JP_Finn Often, I wouldn't believe dictionaries, since those are written by dictionary-people and not professionals of very spesific and maybe marginal fields.  ::) Here is something I found while digging up terms:

https://www.leather-dictionary.com/index.php/Hide_-_Skin
https://www.leather-dictionary.com/index.php/The_Leather_Dictionary
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 12:50:16 PM by Buoidda »
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Sami

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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2020, 06:06:55 PM »
I have had several thoughts about the tanning of skins in this game for a long time. Here's my suggestions on how to make the tanning feel more right - at least in my experience.

Thoughtful input is always appreciated, but it's still better to pinpoint one crisp idea than a list of things.

We don't really feel like getting into changing the terms as the current terminology isn’t that much off, and people have gotten used to it over the years. The terminology could be of course defined better and better on various sectors of the game but it’s just a mess to do after something has gotten good footing.

Quote
2) Remove the need for water for cleaning skins. When I do that IRL, don't require water.

Upon first creating the tanning system we followed certain guidelines and practices and instructions on how to proceed with it. There are variations and things can be reasoned in many ways, but we gotta stick to some mechanics within the scope of possibilities. Anyhow, we’ll digest this input, and see if a need for change arises.

Quote
6) Dehairing seems to have an odd step after it. A dehaired skin is not dry, but very wet. It doesn't need to be soaked, quite the opposite. The membranes are scraped off or at least broken when they are dry. A thorough wash and salt water are beneficial after dehairing, to slow the rotting which caused the dehairing in the first place. I'd alter the soaking step to a wash and dry. (I'm aware of many methods of tanning, but in this rubbing method the game uses this would be appropriate.)

We’ll ponder this. I can’t quite recall clearly what was the original logic or instruction behind the soaking, but surely there was some purpose to have it in there.

Quote
8 ) No cutting weapon needed in dehairing.

Yep, but cutting weapons are still quite commonly used to cover some bits and pieces along the way. Doesn't hurt to have it around.

Quote
9) Tanning by smoking, in the same style as smoking meat.

Would be nice addition, and maybe – just maybe – in the future, but as we have one working tanning method already I’d rather use my limited coding time for something else.
- Sami | UnReal World creator

Buoidda

« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2020, 08:00:30 PM »
1) Rename the 'rinsed' * skin to 'hard' * skin and remove it's ability to spoil. Rotting at this already-tanned stage doesn't make any sense to me. Also the 'hard' adjective describes better what is expected to do next. Also IRL this is how we refer to skins at this stage.

how about the 'rinsed not spoil' bit? It was kind of the most important (also featured in title)...

Reason: most other stages of game tanning are fairly quick and over with overnight wait. But the last bit (softening rinsed) can take hours of time so the rush to soften is a bit much sometimes. Also, from rl perspective, rigid leathers awaiting to be softened tend to pile up in the warehouses... It's not really something one would be in a rush to do: it shouldn't rot anymore.

(I'd still consider changing it to hard or rigid, but ur call  :) )
« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 08:02:54 PM by Buoidda »
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Sami

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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2020, 08:41:32 PM »
1) Rename the 'rinsed' * skin to 'hard' * skin and remove it's ability to spoil. Rotting at this already-tanned stage doesn't make any sense to me. Also the 'hard' adjective describes better what is expected to do next. Also IRL this is how we refer to skins at this stage.

how about the 'rinsed not spoil' bit? It was kind of the most important (also featured in title)...

Yes, maybe, I gotta sit down and check out what was our initial logic/guidelines. Takes a while to browse the code and archives with care, but I'll be doing it and the adjustments may follow.
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anything