Topic: Snake venom arrows  (Read 371 times)


« on: January 24, 2019, 01:19:26 AM »
Can we have the option to make poison arrows? Perhaps we can use snake venom for this.

It would make a great anti-bear and anti-njerpez weapon.
After getting hit, muscle paralysis would gradually set in. Would that be too difficult to code though?

Reason for asking is that currently, after getting 3 or 4 arrows into Njerpez or bears (they were running at full speed mind u) they still are able to close the distance. There must be some way to even the playing field for small puny owl tribe players who cannot melee.

If I were a tiny owl tribesman in real life going against large prey, I'd definitely use any tools available to my advantage.

I think it's not too OP, becos snakes are rare. Thus venomous arrows would be powerful but difficult to obtain.

One last thing, why is it that after you throw javelins or shoot arrows into humans, they can use them against u? There shld be a bleeding effect when they pull them out at least?


Signatus

« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2019, 03:50:08 AM »
Can we have the option to make poison arrows? Perhaps we can use snake venom for this.

Except not really. The only venomous snake in Finland is the viper. That means you'd first have to capture one ALIVE and milk it for the deadly poison. Then you'd have to store the venom (it apparently needs about -20°C in one hour after collection) or make use of it right away. I'd say that's undoable

However, people around the world, mostly jungle dwellers, have made it from various other things, including plants. This could be done, but I'm unsure of what could in fact be used. We could always mod in a new plant, but maybe they didn't poison their arrows for a reason...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_poison

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It would make a great anti-bear and anti-njerpez weapon.
After getting hit, muscle paralysis would gradually set in. Would that be too difficult to code though?

I don't think the issue is being difficult to code, since you can already suffer from mild disease and poisonous shrooms. Would a poisoned tip act that fast on a wound?

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Reason for asking is that currently, after getting 3 or 4 arrows into Njerpez or bears (they were running at full speed mind u) they still are able to close the distance. There must be some way to even the playing field for small puny owl tribe players who cannot melee.

You want to stop a charging human or bear with poison rather than the arrows themselves? Wouldn't adrenaline be enough for them to ignore its effects for enough seconds to get to you anyway?

There's a pretty simple way of evening it: aim for the head. You can poke various arrows through a human or bear without actually threatening their life or making them drop dead. Why would an arrow in a shoulder or in a bear's back stop them? Headshots just win

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If I were a tiny owl tribesman in real life going against large prey, I'd definitely use any tools available to my advantage.

You'd still be tiny and subject to the enemy's charge into melee regardless of your tools. It's pointless to fatally poison a bear if it can kick your face in before dropping dead.

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I think it's not too OP, becos snakes are rare. Thus venomous arrows would be powerful but difficult to obtain.

Being OP would totally depend on the implementation, usefulness, speed of the venom, etc. I'd probably rarely use it due to barely seeing any snakes at all

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One last thing, why is it that after you throw javelins or shoot arrows into humans, they can use them against u? There shld be a bleeding effect when they pull them out at least?

You can also do the same, so it balances it out? But a chance of starting to bleed when removing the object is one option. Keep in mind that arrows that hit seem to count as being carried.

PALU

« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2019, 10:12:14 AM »
I don't think there's any available poison that's sufficiently fast acting to be of use in Finland, and I very much doubt there's any historical indication of poisoned missiles (poisoned bait is a different issue, but I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't used during the Iron age).

It's usually reasonably easy for a puny owl tribe character to kill Njerps, because they tend to be very good with a bow, as well as fast. Hit the enemy with an arrow and then back pedal, and the injury and fatigue racked up by running will cause the Njerp to get exhausted in no time, at which you can use him for target practice at your leisure. That't the method I use to kill Njerps, anyway.

Bears are dangerous and should be dangerous. I don't engage them unless they attack and I can't get away.

Brygun

« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2019, 06:48:02 PM »
Although not ideal you could use the recipe system something like;

.Snake Venom. (10)
{Snake carcass}


.Poison arrow. (10)
{Snake venom} [remove]
{Arrow} (10) [remove]
[Point_Attack:9]

Then give the poison arrow much higher damage ratings. It wouldnt have the long term affect of poison. The damage would lend to higher penetration. Its the closest modding method I know of to pull this off.

The point_attack for a base arrow is 8 and the max listed in the modding section of the wiki is 9. So really its not going to help as much as a combat poison ought.




Saiko Kila

« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2019, 01:56:19 PM »
I don't think there's any available poison that's sufficiently fast acting to be of use in Finland, and I very much doubt there's any historical indication of poisoned missiles (poisoned bait is a different issue, but I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't used during the Iron age).

Oh, there's plenty of suitable poisons (see below). Question is if were they used, and if not, does it matter? This game is a fiction in a fictitious world, so why should it be limited to what we know about the history of real region, especially since we know not that much (before Sweden and Novgorod/Russian conquests?)

While we don't know if the natives of ancient Finland used poisons, we know that their neighbours Slavs (all three groups, including the ones who would later form Poles, and Rus') used poison arrows, Balts and Lithiuanians used poison arrows, Mongols and other Asiatic nations used poison arrows, and before them Scythians used very infamous poison arrows. If the action of the game is in the beginning of middle ages, then the Njerp could have been based on marauding Scythians (maybe after the fall of their empire), and they should definitely use poison arrows. It could be balancing to the game if they used it, actually.

As for what could be available, because it can be found in Finland and was used as poison by neighbours:

1. animal - viper venom was the main ingredient of the scythicon (toxin of Scythians) along with excrements, very deadly concoction, though it would work even better if infection (gangrene) was implemented in the game

2. plant - hemlocks - cowbane a.k.a northern water hemlock (Cicuta virosa), poison hemlock (Conium maculatum), both very toxic, effects can occur after 20 minutes if dose high enough, works similarly to curare; prefers wet places near rivers

3. plant - wolfs bane - varied Aconitum species, especially strong wolfsbane (Aconitum firmum), which is one of deadliest plant of Northern
Hemisphere, contains potent neurotoxin, also works similarly to curare, Japanese natives used it to hunt brown bears, but it was used in Central Europe and by Asiatic northern tribes too; it grows in mountainous areas

4. plant - false hellebores - varied Veratrum species, especially white hellebore (Veratrum album) and black hellebore (Veratrum nigrum), were used in warfare both in North America (by Natives) and in Europe and Asia (for example historically by Slavs and Lithuanians). This is interesting, because the same plants were used for the same purposes in completely different cultures, some of them were geographically close to Finland though.

Slavic princes after Christianisation began to ban use of poisons on religious grounds, but there still remain villages founded in this time which basically are named "poisoner's village", because their inhabitants were required to prepare battle poisons (as other villages were required to make iron, or hunt beavers, which is reflected in their names). Lithuanians and Balts are known to oppose Christianity, even after formal conquests, and they used poisoned arrows even till Renaissance (there are complaints to their Christian kings which describe this "unchristianic" practice). And they lived very close to Finland, so I wouldn't rule out a technology transfer. If not to natives, then at least to Njerps.

Also, poisons in real life take time to act. If used for hunting the idea is that the hunter follows the animal (or runs away from it if it's a bear) till the poison kills it, which may take hours. This would be perfectly in tune with present technique of shooting an animal with broadhead arrow and then following it. I think that poison arrows could be a home-made alternative to broadhead arrows, if available to the players (maybe only some cultures), or a valuable find when looting Njerp.

When used in warfare, it can debilitate the enemy rather quickly (cramps, loss of hand-eye coordination, sight loss, or even consciousness loss, like after hemlock), but is shouldn't kill quickly enough to fire-and-forget-and-select-another-target technique, more like should add penalties first. After all, it was more often used in guerilla style tactics than in open, huge battles.

Ara D.

« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2019, 07:53:56 PM »
European adders have a blood venom that compared to other vipers is less toxic so if you wanted a paralysis posion you would be limited to some type of Flora. However I would not mind some poisoned bait for pest control at home stead

Signatus

« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2019, 08:21:59 PM »
I can see how it would be a sneaky way to clear Njerps villages, by sneaking at night and poisoning them one by one. Other than that and escaping enemies, seems like hitting the arrow is more important than the poison.

Also, would the poison taint the animal's meat?

Edit: in regards to the setting, it's based on late iron age finland. That goes from about 500 BCE to 1300 CE. The population of ancient rome reached over one million. Finnish tribes were about 20,000 in total. This is an important point because it severely limits their ability to absorb technology from far away and even preserve their own knowledge since they apparently had no writing.

The tribes also seem to have been frequently at war with each other and resisting outside influence. This probably made information reach them and to spread more slowly.

Sure, it's a fantasy world about a time and place we don't know that much about. But we also need a limit because it's a low-magic/fantasy setting. So every stretch pulls it further from reality.

That being said, the Kalevala (finnish national epic) does have at least one mention of poisoned arrows, but it's a witch and it was compiled in the 19th century. Not sure it's reliable as a source for their use of the poison: https://finnmyth.wordpress.com/2018/06/23/witchs-arrow/
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 08:42:39 PM by Signatus »

Ara D.

« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2019, 08:35:24 PM »
Depends on poison. Some absolutely would lots of other are destroyed by heat. If your poisoning for pests then it doesn't matter just don't eat them

Signatus

« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2019, 08:46:01 PM »
See my edit above! There is only one 19th century source for poisoned arrows from an adder's venom. Unsure of reliability since it's a national epic. The portuguese one can surely not be used to determine much about our ancestors due to being an artistic reimagining including greek and roman mythology into it. So this 19th century epic could br inspired by imported ideas from other cultures.

Ara D.

« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2019, 08:55:57 PM »
I wonder how often a poisoned arrow in tales means one contaminated in order to cause an infection ie. feces, not so good for hunting. great for killing some one you have a grudge against in a world deviod of knowledge of microbes

PALU

« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2019, 10:35:05 PM »
Poisoning as part of a larger war campaign benefits from a much longer time scale than a life-and-death two minute struggle against human opponents, so in a war scenario infection and "slow" poisoning is definitely useful as part of a harassment tactic (although poisoning the enemy wells is probably more effective). Poisoning for hunting a fleeing prey you'll track until they get slowed/weakened/felled by the poison falls in between those time scales.

Using (or at least trying to use) infection as a fallback when trying to assassinate someone might also be useful, but there aren't too many assassination plots in UrW...

Signatus

« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2019, 01:14:20 AM »
Using (or at least trying to use) infection as a fallback when trying to assassinate someone might also be useful, but there aren't too many assassination plots in UrW...

Assassin's Creed: Kallohonka confirmed? Someone has to stop those damned Njerpezit Templars!

I'd totally climb a pine just to dive into a stack of spruce twigs

Privateer

« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2019, 01:18:48 AM »
You can't even poison npcs with food made poisonous with mushrooms  :-[