Topic: Crowdfunding : your thoughts?  (Read 22580 times)


« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2020, 07:36:31 PM »
2) You would be making different choices if your values were similar to mine

And what are those different choices? You mean that for a purpose driven traditionalist life I shouldn't be pursuing my own business ideas, but instead I should apply for a full-time work at a company run by other people?
UnReal World co-designer, also working on a small side project called Ancient Savo


« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2020, 10:13:26 PM »
Under ordinary circumstances, I would never try to micro-manage (as opposed to offering a big picture/broad strokes perspective, which was my intent with my initial brief post) somebody else's life (especially not a stranger's,) but you're asking, so here's my answer:

I suppose the job opportunity is as good an example as any ...

If you had said "I didn't take the job because their anti-traditional corporate values were incompatible with mine" then I could see myself making the same choice. But that doesn't seem to have entered into it at all.

I might have said something like:

I will take this job because my skillset matches perfectly with the required skillset. I'll earn a healthy income and be able to save up some money. If I work at this job for 3 years, a number of good things might reasonably be expected to happen with any luck:

My skills as a programmer might improve.
With my higher social status, I might attract a delightful mate who I will happily grow old with.
My time management, self-discipline and project management skills might improve.
I might develop valuable professional relationships which will increase the likelihood of success should I pursue my dream of developing a video game after my stint with the company ends.
I will be setting a good example for my son and fulfilling my traditional role as a provider, increasing my sense of well-being in the process.

Or, if I pursue this opportunity for 3 months and I'm miserable, or things just aren't working out, I can always quit.

Now, what I hear you implying (correct me if I'm wrong about that) is that working for other people is incompatible with the 'traditionalist life.' If that's true, I couldn't disagree more.

Tribes are groups of people working together towards a common goal. Not everyone is the chief. And not every chief starts out as a chief. This Atlas Shrugged notion that every man is an island and must be an individualist is very ANTI-traditional.

Now, is it possible that in your mid-40's (guessing?) you will spontaneously will yourself into creating a great video game by yourself, when you're struggling to pay the bills? I suppose it's possible. And I sincerely hope it happens. But I think that desired outcome would have been far more likely if you had taken and worked at the programmer job first. I hope you prove me wrong.


« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2020, 11:05:50 PM »
This Atlas Shrugged notion that every man is an island and must be an individualist is very ANTI-traditional.

Do you think that society as a general is still holding up to their traditional values?
I personally see single individuals more than complete societies. This is not an attempt to attack or criticise btw I am just curious about what you think because you are really standing with your opinion and seem to "got it" at life. At least that's what I'm thinking.

Did you really find a decent amount of people that hold similar or the same values as you? Are you really able to live with your values with a society or rather just singled out in a society that is different from your values?

I think this is one of the biggest reasons for traditional persons to be individualists. Most people nowadays think that the "Simple is better" is just there to keep people where they are. And people who actually think that way are singled out. Therefore, almost "forced" to be individualists. Of course there are exceptions but that's what I think at least, just wanted to put it out there.


« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2020, 04:05:44 AM »
Hi trowftd. I appreciate your questions, but it was never my intent to derail this thread and I've only been replying because OP has been asking me questions. I will reply privately.


« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2020, 07:18:04 AM »
OK. Thanks for all the clarifications.

At this point I only have one more question to jonottawa:

Earlier you made a public statement that you are guessing Erkka is very likely a person who is wasting his money on e-girls.

Now I'd like to hear in which ways do you think that making such a public statement is a decent thing to do, setting a good example for others and for the next generation?

(Honestly, I had to google what "e-girl" means, for I was not even aware that such an phenomenon exists. The idea of spending money in such stuff has never crossed my mind. So, seen from my personal point of view I find your remark somewhat derogatory, and I'm having hard time trying to understand why it would be a respectful choice to publicly spread such wild guesses. I don't know but this might be partially just a difference in the way we speak. Maybe your intention was just to ask if your assumption really is true, and you asked that question by expressing your guesses, awaiting for me to correct you if you are wrong.)
UnReal World co-designer, also working on a small side project called Ancient Savo


« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2020, 08:49:00 AM »
You were quoting me before. And now you accuse me of something that is a significant distortion of what I said and fail to quote me. Is that a coincidence?

Let's try an honest summary instead:

In this thread you linked a recent blogpost from your blog. So I read it. In your blog you are very open about certain aspects of your personal life. Far more open than most people are. So I felt free to weigh in.

You mentioned that you have been unable to pay your bills (or at least that your monthly income is well below your monthly bills) and also that you are seeing a new-age therapist and you linked her website, where her rate of $100-$125 per session is listed.

To me, that was a red flag, since many of these people are charlatans who prey on lonely and vulnerable people so I diplomatically expressed my altogether reasonable concern which I thought might be shared by others who had read the blog post:

"This hypno-gal seems like she might be exploiting your loneliness and her going rate seems awfully high for someone who is having trouble paying the bills."

To which you replied:

"I do understand that kind of concern. But don't worry; that hypno-gal is my personal friend. She knows my situation and offered to work with me for free. I don't have therapy bills to pay. But I was struggling with winter tyres for the car, and with replacing the water pump in my well." [emphasis mine]

So at that point, in your own words, my concern was understandable. I made the not-unreasonable assumption that you were paying the professional new age therapist who was providing you with professional new age therapy services. You clarified that she is a friend who is offering her services to you for free.

I then felt relief that my concerns, though understandable, were based on a faulty assumption (that you were paying for these services) and expressed my happiness that I was able to clear up that potential concern for others.

"If my contribution here has been nothing more than to allay potential concerns that any donations to this campaign might end up lining the pockets of an e-girl, it has been worthwhile."

Anyway, clearly this is going nowhere. You seem determined to take offense rather than to reflect on well-intended constructive advice. I'll leave you with this hours-old video from John Doyle, who touches on many of the themes I raised and who does so far more eloquently and persuasively than I ever could.


« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2020, 08:55:43 AM »
 You seem determined to take offense rather than to reflect on well-intended constructive advice.

OK, I see that you are making that kind of interpretation. Again, from my own point of view I don't feel offended. I just wanted to ask for further clarification, and you explained your point of view and we are all good now.
UnReal World co-designer, also working on a small side project called Ancient Savo


« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2020, 05:32:43 PM »
Hey, Erkka  :D I just had this random thought considering a personal situation: My national bank account doesn't allow me to make international payments (like pay-pal), but with some exceptions (I can do transactions in Steam). So, maybe an idea for Enormous Elk crowfounding can be releasing some art dlc in the UrW steam page; like some games that releases artbooks and stuff. Well, it's just a crazy idea considering my own national-bank limitations  :P, but considering that Enormous Elk do some UrW artistic videos and related stuff it can be an option to support more donations.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 07:46:19 PM by Ezezaguna »


« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2020, 05:37:45 PM »
maybe an idea for Enourmous Elk crowfounding can be releasing some art dlc in the UrW steam page 

Hehe, just a few days ago we were discussing this idea with Sami. It got added to our plans for 2021.
UnReal World co-designer, also working on a small side project called Ancient Savo

Dark Art

« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2020, 08:28:40 PM »
Cough, PAT cough, RE ONhh... Sorry guys, feeling a bit under the weather today, how's everyone doin'? :)


« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2020, 09:17:23 PM »
feeling a bit under the weather today, how's everyone doin'?

Here in Finland it has been snowing, but the temperature isn't below freezing. At 9pm I came back home after a few hours of work. I was delighted to find my house warm, but I felt that it would be even nicer if I had a old-fashioned fireplace. I have been planning to construct one, hopefully some year in the near future if I have enough money to buy the materials, and enough time to do the masonry.

But then I started to think about this. When I bought this house, 12 years ago, it was sold with a remark "in unlivable condition". So, during the first summer I installed a water pipe so that I have running water in the kitchen tap. I fixed a leaky spot in the roof. I added a lot of heat insulation to the attic. I checked that the chimney was safe to use. And after that, year by year I have slowly been renovating the house. Mostly by myself, learning by doing. Half of the floor in the bedroom was rotten, I tore apart the whole floor and rebuilt it from a scratch. I have been replacing rotten logs in the walls. I have completely rebuilt the entrance hall. I have been removing old badly damaged wall siding, and replacing it with new materials. For outer paint I used traditional red paint which I made myself from the ingredients. All that kind of stuff. But yet, I must say that after 12+ years of renovating there are still things in need of improvement.

Maybe I have been all wrong all the time? Maybe I'm under some illusion or false belief? Maybe the real truth is that renovation doesn't cure the unlivability of a house? I'm starting to get alarmed, what should I do?  :P
UnReal World co-designer, also working on a small side project called Ancient Savo

Dark Art

« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2020, 11:13:02 PM »
There is no such thing as "unlivable". OK, maybe there are some exceptions, but usually it means "the place needs lots of work". Otherwise the place would be deemed unsafe and probably be demolished by the municipality. When my parents bought their house it was in a VERY sorry condition - a man who lived there was known in the neighborhood for ah.. overindulging with different brews and didnt care one hoot about the place he lived in. So yeah.. It took a while, but now their house, the garden and a small cherry orchard is their shining pride. Oh and they were able to buy it much cheaper than any other property in the area. Same goes for my condo - I had to renovate almost everything, even the ceiling needed some work. But now I know EXACTLY whats what and I take pride in the fact that most of this was done with my own hands. One word of advice though - find a structural engineer and have him do a throughout inspection of the place. That way you'll know what needs to be done and in what order. You'll be able to plan your work/budget years ahead and sleep calmly knowing that you know your house aches and worries. It may cost a bit, but its worth it. If you dont know anyone directly, you can ask someone who lives in a largish apartment buildings, they can ask the management company to suggest an engineering firm who deals with these things, otherwise a real estate agent may know someone.


« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2020, 12:21:34 AM »
Couple scenarios that are in livable: Rotten frame. Thorough black mold. Structural fire damage.
But leak here another there and surface repairs needed, won’t make a place uninhabitable.

I’m certain that every property on the planet could do with repair or improvement, how ever minor.
Whole thing with some grass greener and some fences et cetera.

Dark Art

« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2020, 03:03:34 AM »
I am speaking kinda from experience. Even though I am not a structural engineer, I serve on a board of directors of my condo for last 7 years, so I deal with them on somewhat regular basis. Trust me - if the place would be unlivable, you wouldnt be able to sell it as a residential unit. I realize that every country have different regulations  and in some parts of the world "livable" means different things, but still... As far as I know, Finland is very civilized place and I just cant imagine a real estate agent selling property marked as residential that is completely unfit to live in or outright dangerous. If that would've been a case and something bad would've happened to a buyer, well.... Lets just say that the agent and everyone he/she professionally associated with (issued licenses, did the pre-sell inspection, insured, etc ) would be outta work and possibly behind bars. So yeah, it cant be all THAT bad, but if the place is quite run down, a proper inspection from a professional engineer to see whats what and outline any potential structural damages would be a very good idea - they can see small things that, if repaired in time, prevent major renovations down the road.


« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2020, 08:29:14 AM »
Good morning, everyone, and thanks for your valuable comments!

Hey, Dark Ark - very good that you mention the legal aspect. That is essential, and I forgot to clarify that. So, here is a bit more of the background details:

This house was not listed for sale. I just saw the place had been sitting uninhabited for years, so I contacted the owners directly and asked if they are willing to sell the place. At first they were hesitant, but to my great delight they agreed. And, sure, in Finland we have legislation regulating this kind of things, and there are consequences for those who attempt to sell and overpriced house by telling faulty or dishonest stuff about the real condition of that house. So, pretty much because of that the people who sold the house suggested a deal: Basically, I paid only for this plot of land, and got the buildings for free - in whatever condition they happen to be. Therefore the legal document includes that remark "in unlivable condition", for it gives a good night's sleep for the sellers. That way I can't sue them for telling lies. Absolutely not a problem for me, at that time I was willing to take the risk. Despite being severely depressed around those times I somehow had this inner faith that "I can manage, things will work out."

And it has definitely been worth it. Also, in different phases of the renovation project I have used the services of experienced professionals to evaluate the critical parts. And based on that I have made my project plans, and so far everything has been good - the place turned out to be in a better condition than the previous owners thought, so I kind of a won in this deal, getting a nice place for myself for a rather low price.


Then, an another thing is my sometimes-a-little-bit-tricky-sense-of-humour, characteristic of The Savonian people which I identify myself with. Earlier in this thread I was told that "depression is not cured by therapy, and one way to back that claim is to point out that after 20+ years of therapy Erkka still has some minor mental health issues to work with." Reading that kind of assumptions made me think that such a claim is about as plausible as stating "renovation doesn't help, if after 12+ years you still have some minor improvements waiting to be done". But at that point I just rolled my eyes and ignored the stuff. But then, on the other hand - speaking openly about mental health issues, and about how to recover from then has been one of the purposes of my blog. During the years of writing the blog I've had some personal feedback from readers who have found it valuable and helpful how I share my experience. So that has given me a more deeper sense of purpose with writing the blog. Because of this kind of reasons I wanted to return to this theme, just using a little bit of humour.

Using the same analogue: 12 years ago I still had some suicidal feelings every now and then. Sometimes I got panic attacks triggered by small mundane events. Sometimes I had to sit completely still staring into the void, waiting for my mind to calm down for I knew eventually it would do so. Most of the time I felt that my brain is full of fog or mist. And I went to therapy to learn more about why those things happen, and what can be done with them. I had already learnt that those stuff are not because of my actual situation in life, but more like flash-backs and post-reactions to a row of severely traumatic events I had to go through earlier in my life. To survive those traumatic events a human psyche often uses different kinds of coping methods, and for me some events - like facing several situations of nearly-lethal violence when I was still just a vulnerable kid - left me with a tendency to dissociate away from the situation. With therapy I learnt that part of my mind is still stuck with the dissociation, making me feel foggy inside. And that there are methods to work with that, to reverse the dissociation. To dissolve the internal panic so that panic attacks won't happen any more. After a long slow process with the therapy I find myself in a rather good condition. No more suicidal thoughts, no more panic attacks, no more heavy depressed days. 12 years ago there were days when I had trouble getting up from the bed, for right in the morning I felt that my life is miserable and I don't want to face this world. Nowadays I enjoy my life with a deep sense of purpose and meaning. But there is still some of that dissociation fog left, and I need to keep on working with that. Luckily, I have found professional therapists who master some good methods to address that kind of issues.

Hehe, and while I have been slowly dragging myself through those heavier years of depression, on the side I've still managed to contribute pieces of help in The UnReal World coding project. I remember there were weeks when I felt persistent emotional pain all the time. To cope with that I coded projectile trajectory algorithms for Sami to track arrow flight in the game. Or the weather simulation. And the random map generator. All that kind of pieces of code have been written while suffering from more or less severe mental health issues. And participating in the game project, seeing the audience enjoy the game, it has also been a valuable part in my own recovery project.

So, here we are now. I feel that the therapeutic processes have worked wonders - even though there still are some minor issues requiring further work, I deeply feel that my depression has been cured, and nowadays in my blog I often write about the chronic depression in past tense - something which I had earlier, but it is not there any more. What remains is something more like a mild but persistent post-depression state. So, from my point of view this is just an example that even if some mental recovery processes might take some time, it clearly is so that therapy can help cure depression. Just like renovation can help cure 'unlivability' of a house.

Oh well - enough of my personal stories  :D My point is: I see both my mental health and my long-term house renovation project being in such a good shape that I have more focus and energy for further Enormous Elk coding projects. And that I wanted to mention this, because I'm perfectly well aware that many of our long-term followers might remember some of my earlier phases, when I've been able to code small focused pieces for Sami, but I wasn't in a good enough shape to consistently manage a bigger project. Things have been becoming a lot better, and I find new joy in our indie coding projects. And, naturally, it remains to be seen what comes out of this. I have hope and I have plans and I have a lot of development-phase code. Week by week that code grows into something more, so eventually it will be enough for a playable demo. Work in progress   :)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 08:31:38 AM by Erkka »
UnReal World co-designer, also working on a small side project called Ancient Savo