Topic: Does BAC reduce realism?  (Read 319 times)


misnelstain5

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« on: May 20, 2020, 09:12:28 AM »
I was reading through the wiki and my concerns that the mod would unbalance the game and make it less grounded in history seem justified. One dude in the forest couldn't mine iron ore and make steel surely, you'd need a village full of people to do that.

Some of the stuff sounds cool and relevant (bone fish-hooks etc) but I'm worried it'll just become cheesy and unrealistic if there's a slew of unbalanced piecemeal additions.

Any thoughts?

Tinker

« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2020, 10:40:01 AM »
My 2 cents. BAC is the single best improvement to URW, it makes many thing more 'real', I never play without it.

Admittedly I have never got into metal production so cannot comment on the balance/realism of this part. You do have the option of not using any bits you do not think are accurate enough.

It is possible that the first working on iron was done by a single guy trying to make iron better than bronze. Making a steel arrow head could be done by one person, making lots of them would need more people.

StefanPravda

« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2020, 11:15:13 AM »
Now you don't have to imagine mining as a 100m underground process. More like a surface deposit thing. But BAC is awesome, nevertheless. Still haven't used the mining stuff, but I will at some point in the future.

Dungeon Smash

« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2020, 07:38:44 PM »
Personally I think it greatly improves the game, but yes maybe it is a little unrealistic that a 16 year old person would know how to do everything from building looms, knitting, making nets, smelting bog iron, building boats... Still, not impossible if you play someone with high intelligence.  Most people in the UnReal World would probably have at least seen or heard of most of these processes (depending on their cultural background).

As others have said, you always have the option of ignoring those parts of the mod.  You can even just go into the mod files and delete whichever parts don't suit you - or strike them out so that you can bring them back in later if you choose.

I always encourage everyone who have quibbles with mods, to learn the modding infrastructure for the game, if you don't already know it, because it's actually incredibly intuitive and simple.  I am not a computer expert by any means, but I find it very easy to manipulate, tweak and combine mods in this game.  You could even create your own sub-mod which you feel better represents reality, and release it to the community. 

Brygun

« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2020, 04:43:00 AM »
Odd thing on the forum this the exact same original post as also recently posted on the forum but under a different user name.

ITs over here at:
https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=5533.0

I will duplicate my reply here with:

Well, now. Didn't expect that question.

Fair disclosure: I'm Brygun. The B in the BAC mod. Organizer of the mod from its various sources including my own addittions.

So where to being:

Q: Is play balance different with BAC?
A: Yes
Of course it does. There is many ways to get different tools or results other than the options in the vanilla game.
Ways of generating wealth bundled up in ways of entertaining your self with role playing whittle a board game. Even if the game tracks how much of a different good is sold that there exists multiple new items means you could profit by selling them to a village.

Q: Does it change realism?
Well what is your reference for realism? Many, though not all, players are modern urbanites enjoying the game as a trip to the woods. I'm a bit urbanized but also grew up in the country side running around in forest was normal. It was a very safe wood without bears or lynxes or wolverines or Nerjpez to worry about.

Q: Is there realism basis for items in the BAC?
A: Yes
In fact if you open up the diy_BAC_XXXX.txt files I specifically included references including links to youtube videos you can watch. Those certainly show there is realism is the mod.

Q: Did item XXX exist in real world Iron Age Finland?
Oh now there is a varied question. Item by item of all items would be too much so here is a few. Again many others have references in the .txt file comments.
= As a Canadian with a tradition of birch bark canoes I put it in yet as Saami, maker of Unreal World and a native Finlander, pointed out is the sort of birch trees in Finland are different so they probably couldn't even made at all.
= The largest of the boats, the clinkered punt, is a combination of the steamed open tree logs known to Finland plus the clinkering and caulking of what is known for sure in later ages but possible in that age.
= The steps for making iron come from Rain's Ironworking mod and do indeed match up to my own studies of blacksmithing in that period. I was surprised to find that lake ore is a real thing. I thought it was a quirky gamey thing but low and behold if one looked into it this actually is realism. Secret: Finland has/had so much surface and near-surface iron ore that it flowed down with the rains into rivers into lakes. In the lakes, like the bogs, biological processes pulled it out and tended to make it into clumps mixed with non-iron. Thus you did need to roast the lump of lake ore (or bog ore) and process.

= Back strap weaving is a real world thing. I believe there is a video for that in the .txt files.

=  Cordage is easier to make in BAC through various real world ways. Only the recent 3.60 ish (IIRC) added the withe making. Prior to that it took capturing animals to get leather to get the cords to hang meat to dry in the winter. A rather recursive if you have it (an animal kill) you can do it but if don't have it you can't do it (if that makes sense). In my own research I looked into real world ways for making cordage, like digging up spruce roots, and added them in. Real = yes. Changing the play balance = yes.

Part of the BAC goals was to include things that were known or plausible to teach woodland survival skills. Thats why the Shaman mod was excluded, that is well researched but deals with a metaphysical.

If you are new to UnReal World you might want to give a few goes at playing without the mod. It can be added mid-play or removed. The way Unrweal World recipes work once an item is created its properties are assigned to the instance thus not needing an ongoing reference. IF there is a graphic custom that might end up being empty but it should still show up in the list if you stand on a tile to pick it up. Of course without  the mod you don't need a Ball Hammer.

Good question. Think I will add the answers to the BAC forum and the text files.

>>>>

And its follow up reply of:

I'd also like to point out that a lot computer games today get crafting wrong. The do it wrong on purpose. They create artificial values and needs based on the programmers following popular tricked perceptions or to have things break to give players something to do again and again.

On tricked perceptions: Gold
Gold is a soft metal that stays shiny and conducts electricity. It is also very heavy. It is utter rubbish for making armor and weapons. The real world Kings of Europe had full plate armor of >steel< with >gold as pretty trim<. Many games make you want to use gold as something like a pick axe to pound on volcanic granite rock. Utter non-sense.

On having things break to give you repetitive things to do: Minecraft pick axe
Pick axes of real world miners last for how long? Sure a mining company will wear through them. Sure they need to be sharpened now and then. They last for weeks or months. You don't have to take a shipment of pick axes for your 8-hours of work. By having the tool break the player of the game is now forced to go to the same parts of the game world to gather the same materials. It is forcing repetition.
To be honest I love it in Fallout 4 running mods where I have to go hunt copper for the casing of my modded in .50 caliber semi-automatic anti-material rifle my power armor character uses. Bullets though really are one use except for that copper (really bronze) casing falling to the ground which could be gathered up again.

Award for worse realism in a computer game goes to Minecraft for making players strive to get the so called high quality tool of a Gold Pickaxe that breaks regularily.

#2 for the award also goes to Minecraft for the diamond headed pick axe. Seriously. You want to poke fun at realism in a computer game try to find a real world example of a diamond headed pick axe.