Topic: Trainers  (Read 2863 times)


Roman Lodestar

« on: December 29, 2017, 01:50:11 AM »
I think this was suggested in the old forums before but still I find this one particularly useful: Getting training for your skills, especially for weapons. Using the same formula for quest givers which reward you with a *Skill* lesson and once you perform a task in their respective area you instantly improve. In settlements there could be villagers experienced in certain skills they can teach you for a fee (food, tools, hides) until you reach their skill level, the more skilled you are it becomes slightly more expensive the training sessions, finding a grandmaster in a skill should be rare so it would encourage more travelling to different villages.

This could help especially non-fighters characters to receive safe training without losing a arm in the process and cut down the long grind of leveling up.



 

PALU

« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2017, 11:35:56 AM »
I like the idea of being able to get some help with improving skills (my current character would certainly benefit from any and all combat training). Balancing this may be tricky, though.
- In addition to a higher cost for higher level training higher levels of training should probably require higher levels of trust, so you'd have to build up a reputation with the potential trainers (and/or their villages) for them to accept to train you. That would prevent you from just traveling around the world to seek out the masters to gain mastery in a comparatively short time. Instead, you'd have to spend a considerable amount of time while concentrating on only a few skills (the ones available in your vicinity).
- Training would also need a cool down similar to the quest intervals, where the cool down period is used to practice what's being taught.
- Training quest rewards should be more valuable than trainer training, though, and one way to achieve that would be to allow trainers to train you only up to the level below their own, so grand mastery would require quest rewards and/or actual practice.
- Offering trainer services might be made into a new quest reward.
- Trainers should probably be identified through talking to villagers, as everyone skilled in a trade isn't necessarily interested in or capable of training others. It could even be done such that villages would only reveal trainers and offer training to people they have a sufficiently good relation with, so you couldn't just travel around to locate all the trainers and then set up a training resettlement strategy, but would have to resettle first and then find out what becomes available over time.

caius

« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2017, 05:42:02 PM »
I've been thinking about weapons training specifically and also have a few thoughts.  I'll also offer a shout out to the HEMA alliance if any of you are interested: https://www.hemaalliance.com/  Also a comment about my own bias, I don't like Privateer's current mod for combat training dummies.  It is a good workaround but doesn't fit into the feel and style of URW (IMO).  It also doesn't work in any sort of historical context.

  • Weapon training is a grind in real life.  It takes months and years to improve in skill and ability with a weapon.
  • Learning a weapon alone is incredibly difficult.  A teacher fixes basic mistakes, offers a more skilled opponent, provides a safe (safer) place to fail, and challenges the student to consider new questions and seek for solutions to those questions.
  • Weapons training often requires specially adapted equipment and protection.
  • Weapons training also requires a safe space or physical location.

So, if a weapon training system is on the table for development, I'd recommend some of the following mechanics be considered:
  • Only a few NPCs in each culture should be weapons trainers.  There might be cultural limitations for which weapon skills are available.  For example, maybe teachers for the highest skill levels are limited by culture...
    • Shield - Driik
    • Knife - Kaumo and Sarto
    • Sword - Driik
    • Club - Seal
    • Axe - Kiesse and Reemi
    • Flail - Koivu, Sarto, and Reemi
    • Spear - Seal
    • Bow - Owl
    • Crossbow - Driik
    • Unarmed - Kaumo, Sarto, and Owl
  • You should be able to search for NPC weapon trainers.
  • The weapon trainer offers an increase in a weapon skill like the current quest system does for weapon skill improvement.  That is, training gives the player character a guaranteed skill increase next time the player character uses that skill.
  • I like Palu's suggestion for reputation:
    • - In addition to a higher cost for higher level training higher levels of training should probably require higher levels of trust, so you'd have to build up a reputation with the potential trainers (and/or their villages) for them to accept to train you. That would prevent you from just traveling around the world to seek out the masters to gain mastery in a comparatively short time. Instead, you'd have to spend a considerable amount of time while concentrating on only a few skills (the ones available in your vicinity).
  • The player character must collect and craft specialized equipment for the NPC weapon trainer.  For example:
    • ...if a player is trying to improve the archery skill, they must obtain a bow for the weapon trainer (e.g. fine longbow, masterwork northern bow, etc.) based on cultural requirement, arrows that the NPC trainer keeps, and an archery butt (a new craftable item that serves as the target).
    • ...if a player is trying to improve the sword skill, they must obtain a suit of armor (complete set of fur clothing or leather clothing, iron helm, mail cowl, etc.) and a blunt wooden practice sword (the practice sword only causes blunt damage).  (Note: modding for this is rather easy.).
    • Blunted weapons would be needed for swords, knives, axes, etc..  Maybe a staff is equivalent enough for a spear. 
  • The NPC weapon trainer could become a companion with a specialized dialog option.  The player character asks the NPC to train them in a weapon, and if the player has a high enough reputation, the NPC says OK if the player provides the specialized equipment for training.  The player should also provide food and some type of reward or valuable to the NPC. 
  • After the NPC becomes a companion, a specialized command becomes available to train the player.
  • The NPC and player then train for a few hours and the player then gains negative consequences (e.g. blunt wounds from any weapons, lost arrows from archery practice, damage to the practice weapon or armor.
  • The NPC weapon trainer would only stay with the character for a few days and thereby limit how much skill improvement is allowed.
  • I also like Palu's suggestion for a cooldown so the NPC weapon trainer isn't able to be hired as a companion for at least a set period of time:

I believe some sort of NPC weapon trainer system would help a critical limitation in the current URW system.  Like Palu mentioned, this system will try to be gamed by players so balancing would be needed.

JEB Davis

« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2017, 05:47:06 PM »
Bravo, nice ideas!  :)

PALU

« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2017, 08:03:33 PM »
- If the trainer is a hired special companion as per caius' suggestion, you might not need any guaranteed results at all. Instead, the trainer would act as an actual sparring partner in the case of melee, and instructor in the case of ranged training (with the instruction part probably abstracted away). However, it would be useful to simulate the instruction aspect by increasing the odds of gaining a skill point from training (while still maintaining the current daily maximum). The trouble here would probably to change the combat point so the trainer backs off when gaining the upper hand, rather than killing the student (it's possible the robber behavior code might be of use).
- The higher the training level the more extensive the equipment requirements. Most characters would be able to receive initial crossbow training (provided they've found an instructor) by providing little more than payment (as most characters seem to have a skill level below 20). Similarly, initial sword training might be performed with little more than crude wooden swords (or even staves) and some basic protection, while advanced training would require training tools that have been balanced to match that of real swords. It may even require several training weapons specialized for different parts of the training at the top level.

caius

« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2017, 05:07:23 PM »
- If the trainer is a hired special companion as per caius' suggestion, you might not need any guaranteed results at all. Instead, the trainer would act as an actual sparring partner in the case of melee, and instructor in the case of ranged training (with the instruction part probably abstracted away). However, it would be useful to simulate the instruction aspect by increasing the odds of gaining a skill point from training (while still maintaining the current daily maximum). The trouble here would probably to change the combat point so the trainer backs off when gaining the upper hand, rather than killing the student (it's possible the robber behavior code might be of use).

In the current combat system, I don't know when an upper hand is achieved.  I can imagine the NPC trainer breaking my arm and still wailing away on me with a blunted practice axe.  Or even knocking me unconscious with one hit and then getting in another few shots while I'm down before they back off.  Also, we've all experienced the one-hit-one-kill phenomenon and I'd hate for that to happen in a "safe" training environment to either the player or the NPC.

The coding for an actual sparring partner might be a challenge.  If the NPC weapons trainer entered an aggressive state in order to engage in combat, what would happen to other NPC villagers?  Would they pile on?  What if the player had dogs nearby?  Would the dogs try to attack the NPC trainer?

Having said all that, any weapon training option would be welcome.

Mati256

« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2017, 06:05:34 PM »
Nowadays most hunters and adventurers are masters at some kind of weapon.

 

anything