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Messages - Erkka

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General Discussion / Re: Crowdfunding : your thoughts?
« on: October 29, 2020, 05:41:50 PM »
Quote from: Credit
As a customer of UnReal World, I'd much much rather have more updates on that and/or even crowdfound specific features. I don't wanna grap another game to fullfill my UnReal World "needs" and is a little concerned about the state that game could/will be left in (I haven't been here for 28 years, just 2). It does seems counter productive, from a customer's point of view

I understand and appreciate that point of view. So, it remains to be seen if most of the UnReal World players feel that way - if the another game project won't get backers, then clearly that will mean that I won't be wasting my time coding a game no-one wants to play =) If that happens, then we need to change plans, no problem.

Quote from: JP_Finn
A full size A-title games sell for about €60. So that should be a “gold standard” to aim for.

Ah, sure! But here I've been crafting plans for a small indie game which could realistically see the first full version released after 3 months of coding or so. I feel that a game like this would sell for half the price of UnReal World, which would make the price tag of 6 €.

That means that either we need to sell a lot of "early access" perks for a cheap price, or then we need to come up with interesting perks in the €10 - €250 range, with emphasiz on stuff at €20 - €50 range.

This has been my line of thinking, wondering what extra people would like to have if they'd decide to support a 6 € game by donating 25 € or so. (Or, to rephrase myself: what perks would people like to have, if they donate to help Erkka become a full-time indie coder, ultimately boosting the UnReal World development, and also getting a nice small game as a side-effect.)

(Yeah I talk about ditching my main work, and I'm already living on minimal budget. Something like 2000 € would be a good sum to keep me coding almost full-time for two or three months. I'm self employed, so luckily it is not a total yes/no decision of quitting my current work. It is just that I'd love to have indie coding as my main work, leaving only a few hours a week of my current work on the side.)

Quote from: MrMotorhead
I supported Prison Architect slightly higher to be able to submit a custom prisoner that was included in the game's release.

That's a good idea, I'll think if and how that would fit with the planned project. Just for clarification: in what form did you submit your custom prisoner? You mean pixel art, or a xml-structured text file describing character details, or something other?

General Discussion / Re: Crowdfunding : your thoughts?
« on: October 29, 2020, 11:03:35 AM »
This will surely slow down the development of the "flagship", no?

We aim to have it the other way around. Personally, I'd love to quit my main work to be a full-time indie game developer, so that in the future I would have more coding time to help Sami with UnReal World development. After considering various different ways of taking this leap the chosen tactics is a crowdfunding campaign for a small side-game project.

For so many years I have had trouble with finding proper coding time next to my main work. The time has come to ditch my other odd jobs. I do believe that taking this leap will eventually lead to boostin UnReal World development, instead of slowing it down.

EDIT: to clarify; the mentioned side-project is not intended to be a long-term development like UnReal World is. The plan is to spend a few months coding a release version (1.0), then slow down for a few more additional versions (like 1.1 or 1.2), eventually leaving the side-project as it is, so that there will be more time to concentrate on UnReal World development. So, this another game is just a temporary transition phase.

And, as mentioned: an another game could also double as a test environment to develop and to polish algorithms before implementing them in UnReal World. For example, back in the time when I was coding the weather simulation for UrW, I first coded a tiny text-based test environment. I ran hundreds of tests in the sandbox environment so that I got the details of the simulation polished, before the whole thing was implemented in the main game. Now I'm planning a full stand-alone small game, partially for the same reason - to have a sandbox where I can experiment with various algorithms. But this is purely to coder point of view - for the player that mentioned small game would naturally be a fully playable and fully enjoyable game in itself.

General Discussion / Crowdfunding : your thoughts?
« on: October 29, 2020, 10:05:27 AM »

This is Erkka from the Enormous Elk development team. We are planning an another game as a small side-project. To make this happen we'd like to set up a crowdfunding campaign on IndieGoGo platform. The plan is to use Discord as the main platform during the development phase, so that there would be weekly updates on development progress, and monthly Q&A sessions (hopefully with a video stream). I think the funding phase would run for three weeks, aiming to have the first playable alpha or beta version before the end of this year.

To maintain the suspense, we will announce the project details only a few days before the crowdfunding campaign starts (before mid-November, that is). But what I can say already now is that the game would run on Windows, Linux and Android, also aiming for Mac and iPhone release pretty soon after the non-apple release. And also, in case you wonder - from the development point of view a side-project is beneficial also for the actual UnReal World development; a smaller sibling game would double as an experimental laboratory, where different kinds of algorithms and ideas can be tested.

So, at this point - before I start to set up an IndieGoGo campaign - I'd like to ask for your thoughts, ideas or personal preferences. What kind of perks would you like to see, for what sum of money? If you have ideas, please post replies suggesting things like "can we have a €25 perk for an access to the monthly live video streams?". Also, it would be cool if someone provides their views on perk range, like "Because of these reasons [....] I think that the minimum perk should be X euros for perk Z1, ranging up to Y euros for perk Zn" Or, what kinds of perks would you love? Digital content like music or concept art? A physical item like copies of game graphics design drawings, or a  hand-written thank you card?

Ps. More news in the weekend. I'm planning a blog post about my personal thoughts and the process of preparing for the project. In the blog post there will also be a bit more details about the project plans.

I don't know how common pine-marten or polecat were 1000 years ago. But I think that when it comes to the smallest predators like ermine, it might be that one doesn't see them so often. In wintertime you spot their tracks, but you seldom see the animal.

I'm thinking about this from the coding point of view. Like, if we continue to spawn animals like it is now, but just add a piece of code that when one comes to check small traps after X number of days, in addition to the normal simulation there could be some probability of catching ermine, even if that particular ermine wasn't spawned into the game world like lynx or elk. Something like that could yield the desired outcome - when walking in the woods you seldom see ermine, yet in your well-placed properly-baited small traps you could find ermine more often than in the current version of the game.

Suggestions / Re: Torch Holder
« on: October 09, 2020, 08:25:09 PM »
The short burn time is offset by ease of use and ease of manufacture, to allow you to burn as many as needed in a row.

Here I'm thinking how that would be best implemented in the game, regarding the user interface and such. For example, if the player character first ignites a päre for additional light, and then starts a woodworking / crafting operation which would take 3 hours - should there be an option to "automatically start a new päre before the previous one is burnt out", or should we assume the player manually pausing the crafting task every now and then to press a few more keys to start another päre to keep the light going on? Or should it be so coded, that a next päre is automatically lit always when the following conditions are met: "there is a päre-holder with a lit päre in it, and one of the adjacent tiles has a stack of päre, and there also is an npc or the player character occupying a tile which has access to both the stack of päre and the päre-holder. And if so, should we run some additional checks that the mentioned character has at least one operational hand, or should we assume that even when both arms are fractured, the task can be completed by using feet and mouth?"

(sometimes I wonder how seemingly simple additions grow to become surprisingly complex design task when it comes to the actual "how to best simulate this in the game")

Suggestions / Re: Torch Holder
« on: October 09, 2020, 02:09:13 PM »
but I don't know what was in use during the period.

I'm under the impression that candles and primitive oil lamps were for special occasions. For every day use the most common additional source of light was a thin piece of wood called päre. The link shows a wooded stand holding a päre in horizontal position. Such stands were used pretty much like a chandle holder. I'm not exactly sure but I'd guess they often had a bowl of water sitting on the floor, to catch any sparks or red glowing small ambers falling off the burning päre.

One piece of päre would burn for 15 minutes, so it isn't that handy for the kind of constant light we nowadays have in the era of electric light. Burning several päre in a row was the method to provide that necessary additional light when doing some indoor work which required more light than the glow of the fireplace.

(Sometimes I wonder how the Iron Age people survived the dimness of Finnish winter.)

General Discussion / Re: New fire mechanics?
« on: September 24, 2020, 12:17:31 PM »
I answered this post earlier in reddit and I really doubt if this is a spam bot again, considering the suspicious links on the signature.

OK, removed the account.
What I like in our current anti-spam procedure is that most of it runs invisibly, causing no extra steps for a human user. But the downside is that the anti-spam rules aren't always 100% up to date, so every now and then a spambot manages to sneak through the defences.

General Discussion / Re: Third party programs?
« on: September 11, 2020, 07:22:35 AM »
already found in the game. As I understand it, the places I have not been yet are crafted by Schrödinger, and nobody knows what the result will be until you walk into the village so see it.

Yes, the locations of items are unknown until they are found.

I'm just asking to better understand what kind of functionality you are looking for, and for what purpose. Like, what about using the in-game map markers?

Or, is it more like that you found an item and then somehow lost it in the wilderness, and would have a program to scan all the visited areas reporting the items in each location, so that you could find "oh, that is where I accidentally dropped my masterwork tool a few months ago when I was chasing an elk" ?

General Discussion / Re: Third party programs?
« on: September 10, 2020, 07:36:58 AM »
You mean tracking items you have already found in the game?

Or something which would scan the entire world map and tell you if this or that village has a masterwork item, so that you'd know which places to visit to find items of interest?

Hehe, silly me!

I tried searching the web with pieces of text taken from Maxwelll's post, looking if it is a direct copy from a reddit post or something. After several searches I found nothing and was puzzled =)

So, I'll leave this here, if for nothing else then to remind me that next time when I suspect a spambot has got through our defences, I should remember to check both our own forums and reddit posts (and other possible sources of copypaste). When this type of spambots arrived, they started with copypasting old forum topics, and the next generation was smart enough to copypaste posts from reddit. Somehow I already forgot that they had this habit of copypasting (slightly modified pieces) or older forum posts.

Modding / Re: Fish traps?
« on: September 08, 2020, 06:25:16 PM »
Fishing improvements are planned for future versions.

In the meantime I'd guess the best you can do is to mod it the way you've already done. (or maybe even use boards in the recipe, to emulate a liistekatiska). Then just use your modded item the way you'd use a stationary fish trap.

Bug reports / Re: [3.63] Ghost-Spruces in the forest
« on: September 08, 2020, 01:53:46 PM »
There was only dog. And after taking the screenshot I doublechecked it and triple checked it by also stepping on that tile again and check again whats there > A dog and nothing but a dog.

So, to get this bug fixed we would need either

1. a detailed description of steps how to reproduce the conditions for this bug - then we can take those steps at the development side and see what happens in the code and fix the bug.


2. a savegame at the site where the bug has occurred, and any additional details (like the exact location of the tile where it says that a thrown item hits a young spruce when there is nothing there but a dog).

user1805, if you can provide either 1. or 2., please do so. Otherwise we can do nothing but to label this under "vague and random incidents which have been reported once but never seen again, so we really can't know if this is a bug in the game code, or some sort of random interference by other software running on the user's computer."

Off-topic / Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
« on: September 01, 2020, 12:12:30 PM »
Da, no problem!

Also, I'm sorry my writing was again a little bit too vague. I didn't mean to claim that during XV-XVI centuries there were constant raids by Muscovites into Finnish territory. Nor did I mean to portray Finnic tribes as mere innocent victims. For me these are such self-evident basic premises that sometimes I forget to mention them.

Like, earlier in this thread I said: "And not just Novgorod expansion, but probably also Finnic tribes launching (counter)raids into Novgorod territory.", indicating that I'm aware that there was warfare to both directions, raids and counter-raids, strikes and revenge-strikes, and revenge-revenge-revenge -strikes and so on. (Also, Finnish peasants had a regular habit of establishing new settlements in the no-mans land on the Russian side of the border, thus making the border less meaningful, irritating the Russian side when they realized that Finnic tribes are silently expanding their territory. But most of this was not Finnic tribes raiding Russian villages, but just Finnich peasants doing slash-and-burn agriculture in uninhabitated woodlands. This can be considered as some sort of passive warfare, the western side of the peace treaty showing that they don't respect the treaty that much for they feel free to gain new lands east of the border.)

The linked article about Muscovites besieging Vybord also says: "The following year Russian generals Vasily Kosoy and Andrey Chelyadnin severely devastated Swedish Finland as far as Hämeenlinna (Tavastehus)." - sure, that doesn't mean constant raids.

I only meant to post a example that it indeed was possible that there were Muscovite raids into Finnish territory during XV-XVI centuries, and that there is historical evidence of at least one such raiding campaign led by Kosoy and Chelyadnin.

But, sure - this is getting severely offtopic and not that much related to the real-life inspirations of UnReal World game world.

To conclude, I'd like to emphasize that personally I have absolutely no intention to paint this or that historical tribe as "bad" or "evil". I'm not interested in blaming anyone. I think that if we examine history, the best we do is to try learn from the history, so that we and the future generations wouldn't need to repeat the mistakes of the past. Finnic and Russian tribes fighting each other and launching raids and counter-raids has been a historical fact. Personally I wish that things like these would stay in the history and happen no more. I have Russian friends and I've visited the country and I love many aspects of the Russian culture, especially the arts, music and literature.


Off-topic / Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
« on: August 31, 2020, 10:04:43 PM »
Or do you really have historical proofs that Moscow in the XV-XVI centuries raided Finnish territories, which were, in fact, under Swedish protection by that time? Do you really think that was even possible?

Sweden and Novgorod settled their border at Treaty of Nöteborg] at 1323 AD.

I think that after Novgorod fell, the Nöteborg peace treaty was not honoured by Moscow. So there were hostilities on Finnish territory, and the border was more or less disputed. One notable story in Finnish folk stories is the explosion at Viborg Castle, 1495. Muscovites were attacking Finnish city of Viborg, but there was some sort of extraordinary blast which sent the Muscovites fleeing.

Muscovite army fighting a Finnish city at 1495 - is that XV-XVI centuries, or am I mistaken?

Ps. I've also read the comment by user1805, speculating that there could be two other possibilities to explain Njerpez. Okay. I have a Master's Degree in Philosophy, and now I must admit that I'm just confused and fail to properly understand the line of user1805's thoughts. And I can't comment on something I don't understand, so I will be silent of whereof I cannot speak =)

Off-topic / Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
« on: August 31, 2020, 06:17:39 PM »
and user1805 got all hot and bothered by the fact that Novgorod was primary inspiration for their creation.

It is my understanding that this thread leans a bit more to the funnier side. For user1805 didn't get upset about Novgorod being used as the source of inspiration - user1805 got upset about half-educated indie game creators carelessly throwing around claims like "it is now verified that thing X is a historical fact", and was like "how the hell do THEY think they know that?"

Which, naturally, appeared funny for the rest of us, for we didn't understand the misunderstandings of user1805. Apparently, user1805 thought Sami was stating claims about a real historical tribe, when Sami meant to speak about fictional Njerpez and him making verifications about the code simulating Njerpez behavior.

Since user1805 has not been commenting after this clarification was made, I'm not sure if the original topic is settled, but I hope so =)

Also, the original source of the confusion was that in the game the Njerpez are not attempting to conquer the entire UnReal World, but mostly just raiding around the eastern corner of the world. User1805 wanted to cite historical sources against that, presumably thinking that in the game the tribe should be reaching further to the north and to the west, since that is what Novgorod historically did. So, yes, earlier I was also thinking if I should ask Dark Art for more clarification on mentioning the Moscow Russia - I was waiting for user1805 to comment, but that didn't happen. I repeat; user1805 wrote more in the line that "THE NJERPEZ SHOULD BE AIMING TO EXPAND ALL THE WAY TO THE WEST AND TO THE NORTH, so how de hell do you claim that you know that they are raiding on the eastern part of the finnic territory?" I mean, to me it seemed that Dark Art also slightly misunderstood what user1805 tried to say, and then launched counter-arguments against a claim which maybe wasn't even made earlier in this thread. But this is all just human, it happens to all of us so often. And that is why I have this silly habit of stopping to ask for clarifications =)

So what do we have here, then?

If I understand correctly, everyone in this thread agrees that historically speaking Novgorod expanded their territory and raided neighbouring tribes. (Just like many other tribes did as well, and how numerous computer games are today about "be the hero, lead your tribe conquering more territory").

Also, I hope that everyone also agrees that in the game The Njerpez are not, and they do not need to be, 100% historically representation of Novgorod or any other bunch of people. It is fiction, and serves the purposes of the game world. But it has it sources and inspiration in history and Finnish folk stories.(And at this point I'd like to emphasize the "folk stories"-aspect. So, the most exact answer to the question "who were Njerpez" is: "they are inspired by the 'Raiders From the East' theme in the Finnish folk stories', and those folk stories in turn have their source in hundreds of years of hostilities with Finnish and Russian tribes.

So, everyone agrees the central topics of this thread, yes? Anyone, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (for personally I dislike "top-down" mentality as much as user1805 does.)

And then in addition to the original question this thread has had side paths, which is just natural for any human discussion. People feel a need to say aloud a few related thoughts which pop to their mind while reading the main discussion. So here we are; a few misunderstandings, a few semi-related side-remarks, a lot of good historical sources given.

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