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Messages - Brygun

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From the first post in the thread for those who have missed the ongoing problems the game updates create:

Each game update may cause "collision" by taking up base menu numbers or changing some mechanic.

Go check out other large mod games like Fallout 4 and KSP 1.

Its a thing that people shut off game updates to run their game without updates that do more harm than good. That's a "solution" too. The suggestion was to allow both the large mod and further updates to coexist so its pretty "funny" for someone to tell a lie that it was about stopping development.

If I understood your response correctly, that’s a peculiar approach to receiving updates to a longest in active development game in history of computer gaming. Maybe I truly misunderstood your response.

You definitely misunderstood and badly so. Its funny that someone who has been around the community mod so much would think that way.

The suggestion was to have a separate key for a make menu that would be a place modders would use. Then any ongoing development wouldn't disrupt the large mods. Since I had talked about a place where BOTH could happen that is on you not understanding. Trying to turn it in not developing the game is one of the gaslighting things people.

I personally can just play, should I play, on the existing versions of the game. The whole point of offering the suggestion was for the benefit of others.

A customer coming into a store having a staff tell them its a "battle" and how "little" the customer means the staff is an asshole.

By all means JP if you're up for it you can take over the community work. Content goes back to Rain's ironworking were we could already make axes and axe handles. Along the way dehafting was added for when you got a bad result mounting a handle. The use of new make menu letters has happened a few times and each time has meant a lot of work was needed to keep Rain and mine and everyone else's stuff going. By all means step up and: GO AHEAD.


Its understandable that the mods author does not care to update a mod for a game he is not playing. On the other hand: its meant to be a "community" mod - so it should not depend on a single person

It doesn't.

BAC agreement includes others can take it over. One offer made was turned down. They don't have to do it either. Someone else CAN take over updating the mod.

When asking for a stable place for a large mods was treated rudely with terms like "battle" and "little" I've not much interest in chasing the dev's BAD attitude to his customers. That's right... modders are customers too! Even more so they gave more content for other players which had been for years a benefit to the dev. Breaking the greater gameplay from the large mod for a few duplicated items.

There are other things like the magic snow ninja's the Nerjpez have become entirely immune to snow affects. Used to be learning the Finnish tradition of skiing gave you an advantage over the foreigners which did teach you the culture. Now its more like a DM who got pissy people where beating his villians so let the villians cheat.

The so called "smithing" update was hoped to actually be smithing but was "shopping". The mod community for years, before BAC, let you BE a smith. So it was a pretty pointless direction to have done the shopping.

Across those the BAC had been updated.

Frankly, if I do play Unreal World I'n not likely to bother with the game updates and stick to the version that the BAC works with.

You see similiar approaches to communities in games like Fallout 4 etc where people turn off updates to play the game >they the customer< wants to play.


In any case, separate menu seems to get support from this small bunch of thread participants.
But it really doesn't happen just like this:
.Modders Make Menu. "Make menu" [effort:0] *CODING* %50%  /5m/
{Make menu}

You asked for the modding community input.

So we don't matter to you?

Just a "small bunch".

Ah thanks.

I'm not asking for changes to the "B" build but the crafting "M" make due to the overlapping that is now happening as Saami adds crafting creating duplicates to what has been possible in the game for in some cases over 10 years. Craft menu space is needed.

Just wanted to post on this- i think an additional key for modded menus is a good idea.

I implemented my own version in my old mod extender project,

Thank you.

I recalled it existed but at time didn't need to use it myself. Couldn't remember its name or maker. Thank you for bringing it up.

Dedicated hotkey for mods would make sense.
But would that outrule current option to touch up/edit vanilla recipes?
I like that I don’t need to add new menudef to add say wooden mugs or making stakes from boards, just add those in the vanilla diy_glossary.

The most important and really only change Im asking for is a make menu the vanilla recipes updated by the dev never go into. You could edit the vanilla recipes just like now. For large mods changes in the vanilla in the update can cause a series of cascade issues. A lot of time by the caretakers has gone into shuffling things to fit into the 625 slots we have now. When "H" was picked for hafted that impacted a slot of 25 of those.

I'm only asking for a modders safe space.

Saami would go on adding things to the 625 slots as he moves along. It just that those changes wouldn't immediately collide with the large mods.

The mod space would be sitting at its version with no changes until such time as the modder gets to updating it.

Without a safe space it will be an ongoing cycle of immediate complaints and disruptions to those playing the large mods.

The management of the 625 recipes of the mod space is upto the modder. If there is a large modder, like BAC or others, its up to them to manage the mod-625.

Imagine if in the future Saami decides to start on player blacksmithing and adds his version of charcoal as one of the steps. Immediately the vanilla-charcoal isn't the same as mod-charcoal. Recipes people are in the middle of using don't work. To put in the vanilla-charcoal a menu space or menu letter was used creating problems in the shared-625 that doesn't exist if we have a mod-625 vs dev-625. With the split the mod recipes still exist and their version of charcoal is accessible for those in the middle of long tech tree work.

When a player sees an update for their mod is available they have a choice of when to make the transition. Thus a chance to finish any big project like making an iron helm.

Also for reading all the recipes at game launch, it’d make testing mods a massive pain. Edit, save mod. Shutdown, start game. Find a need to edit further.  Repeat.
No thanks!

I dont see how that would be necessary. Even now, other than menudef, you can have a game running and edit a recipe then go to the make->item and it loads the menu current in the text file. Nothing I've suggested would change that. Not sure if someone else was saying that or where this came from. You'd don't need to reload the game to check changes in a recipe.

Disagree on Runaway Slave as you have run off into the random wilds.

Maybe on the "not all who wander are lost" and "Abandoned camp" as those are temporary places that may have picked locations for a variety of reasons from long term to its dark and they camped their quickly. Water should be close within a few tiles but usually is. ~3 World map tiles

High probability for the Lonely settler as they invested into buildings. Water by spring or other water should be within same (spring) or next world map tiles.


What needs to be done to fix that? I see two main alternatives;

1. The mod is updated to make it compatible with the latest version of the game
2. The vanilla game is modified to keep the new version of the game compatible with an old version of a mod

The third is what is in this thread.

3. Provide a separate make menu for modders from the vanilla.

What then happens is that when there is an update and the resulting incompatible is the one thing the mod community needs most: Time.

It also lets a mod user decide when to take in a mod update, since they are all manual installs. Thus they can finish a many step build process rather than finding out their mid process resources or tools are useless.



A player in the middle of long game in the middle of a long build cycle, like lamellar armor, can still access for that time the mod's build steps while other players can start the vanilla process.

In the case of lamellar armor various steps including the following recipes:
ore scoop, roasted ore, charcoal, smelter, smelted ore, anvil, hammer, ingot, then drill and cords

If any player blacksmithing is started some or all of those will get duplicated in the vanilla. Given the many build steps a player could be anywhere along that process.


On what happens to the BAC when I go it was already built in that after 30 days of inactivity a new caretaker may take it over with the same terms. Not only was that planned for there was already a handoff once already to Rudy. I'm currently willing to hand off again at the moment too. The BAC though heavily my work is thought of a community owned item. Much of the work comes from the shoulders of people like Rain, Endive and Bouddia. While their exact recipes had to be changed the principles and concepts they set up are in the DNA of the mod.

No offense was intended. This was about the history of modding which you always made an available part of Unreal World. Many suggestions and possible updates exist for any game. When an update is developed and others not there will always be some different views on which one to do next or how it was done.


On the ancestral mods...

To phrase differently players making axes, bows, lamellar armor was added by mods for years. Rain's ironworking is an example. Since Rain wrote that mod various game updates have made his code not work or miss key changes like the introduction of cord lengths. Keeping Rain's going has been part of the BAC by updating those recipes to the current mod language. 

As an example when the blacksmithing update was added the vanilla game now allowed ordering axes form villages. Vanilla players wanting to a specific axe could now get one likely through more hunting & hidework to get the value. Modded players were already making their own choice of axe, exploring the wilderness for sources of iron, crafting tools for getting ore, making charcoal and so on.

I am overall pleased to see more aspects being added to Unreal world and hope to one day see a vanilla player blacksmithing their own axe far away from a village.


On the number of users

For the amount of community interest the BAC 3.82 version shows 524 downloads in post #1 of :

Each time the game went through major updates so did BAC with a new thread to the new game version. So the total number of downloads is hard to know. Many BAC users would have downloaded the next version so the figure above is can be viewed as the active users.


BAC was sized to have lots yet keeping a couple letters free specifically to allow any additions a particular player might want.

The mod community also has a few career mods like bee keeping which some might want and others not.

Some mods introduce being able to train your combat skills through various token systems. While likely of interest to many players it takes a few menu letters to achieve this so wasn't in the BAC. It could potentially be chosen by a player from the free spaces left by the BAC.


A suggestion was to add separate craft menu for mods to use. Right? Let's make sure I understand the proposed suggestion correctly and then brainstorm as necessary. 
So, let's say we'll make a letter O to open a blank make menu, which you can then fill with modded stuff like the current Make menu. And this would be menu that is reserved for mods only. The game craftings would appear in the exisiting Make menu, like currently. Now, if you would then fill this one modders make menu (O) with one big mod it would be..well..full. If there was a few smaller mods that you would like to put there, with custom menu entries or keys even, they would get messed up and tangled together.
If implemented like this it doesn't sound like a plausible long-term solution, or am I not understanding the suggestion?

Correct. That is the current request.

Modders over the year had requested make menu tiers, that is you open make and open a letter than another letter then the 25 recipes for 15,625 possible craft items. Memory recalls an impression on the complexity being an issue on implementing.

The current make menu has ~25x25 = 625 possible entries. By combining many of the popular mods (Rain etc) yes BAC is running close to that. Certain things have been done to save on space like "iron nails" and "iron rivets" being one recipe as the production is very similiar.

There are some mod swap, letter swap methods that are out there as mentioned by Galgana though I've personally never used them.

The modder's crafting single letter was put forward as a lower coding request. It would mean 625 that a modder can use without the "mod collision" that happens when new features are added to vanilla.

"Mod collision" happens when the vanilla game adds crafting to what the modding already had there is some in game disruptions and confusion. An example is the hafting vs BAC's existing mod code. Yes eventually the BAC would be adapted to the new vanilla standard. Until then here are some things that happen:

- BAC included making an axe thus has both an "axe head" and "axe haft"
- BAC "axe heads" don't work with the new vanilla axe fixing. Players get confused.
- BAC "axe haft" doesnt work with new vanilla axe haft so can't fix a broken axe. Players get confused.
- BAC included a chance of a bad axe mounting and recovering a BAC "axe head"

If the vanilla items and mod items are separate then for the above example what is a "BAC axe head" is kept clearly from "Vanilla axe head" and so on.

Further some item creations involve many steps. BAC has "iron nails" that are double used as rivets do save on menu space. Should at some point Saami add nails or rivets the vanilla/mod make split would avoid confusion between whose rivets are needed in recipes. This is intended as a support not a reducing of the vanilla updates.

In time the mods could update assuming the modder is still around in the community.

As another example. [Bowyer] has been added a skill. I actually think that is great. At the time of the last BAC update there was no such skill so the recipes for bow making it has couldn't use it. In time the  mod could be changed over to it. I also wouldn't be surprised if there a players confused on which bow string to use as some will be vanilla bow strings and some BAC bow strings.

The challenge is as new vanilla crafting methods (nets, axes, bows) there is both space needed and a duality that exists. Since a BAC install will overwrite some menus reports are players get confused as to if they dehaft with the new vanilla system they then end up in a BAC menu which doesn't use the same thing and vice versa.

Hmm. Why won't you remove the duality from BAC then? If there is somekind of hafting in BAC, what's the reason for still keeping it in there and reserving the space when there's proper in-game hafting mechanics to use.

If the intention is to have modded counterpart for everything, and not to utilize the existing resources and mechanics, it's doomed way anyway.

Cart <> Horse debate.

As the ancestral mods go back to Rain's ironworking it added the ability to make most of the in game items. This being done at a time when vanilla had no way to do so.

I do think adding into vanilla making items is good. Your own views on times, resources and coding like haft will take of course be different and that's fine. Things like pausable crafting didn't exist so we had to limit times too.

Eventually after each update the duplications would in time be dropped. However at the time of release there is a lot of jumbled things. Like BAC axe heads aren't the new vanilla axe heads. BAC axe hafts aren't the new vanilla axe hafts. Players in the middle of play get confused, frustrated and might not even see the new vanilla menus depending on which installs over the other.

Having an extra letter would let the large mod items exist separately. On a new vanilla update both could exist without that jumble. In time the mod could be updated and remove what is now duplicated by new vanilla code. Example 3.84 added more bows which were already craftable by the mods.

There is also a matter of who will be updating BAC as it might not be myself in the next few cycles. It is set up as a "community" collective and there has been other caretakers along the way. The one extra button is something that gives the large mod time to sort out without thrashing existing games when ongoing vanilla updates creates new duplicates are new principles. Principles like the cordage update and pausable crafts.

The number of entries is likely in the hundreds yes. Its name include "and community" as there is ALOT of recipes from many of our community in it. I acted as the primary but not only curator.  Its how upto 3.82 the BAC combined kept alive mods like Rain's Ironworking, Endive Survival, Bouddia, Weaving, my own collection of oddities, Iago's whittling and many others.

The make menu allows IIRC 24 letters. Of the 24 letters allowed BAC uses 22 with only about 2 unused. Thus any update which makes use of a new letter, like hafting did in 3.83 creates collision with the mod.

It has the production steps for gathering, smelting, forging iron to make axes, swords, metal armor, helms. There was bow making and arrow making. More items included wool making for wool clothing, retting and so on to end up with cloth clothing and bags, clay crafting for pots and containers. A collection of cooking recipes as well.


I encourage and expect the ongoing vanilla adds to pull in the mod versions of things, like bow making now, into vanilla recipes. That's a good thing.

The recipes at the times pushed the limits of what we could do like no step could take more than 8 hours due to needing food and water. One affect is that to have longer processes, like making a canoe, they had to be broken down into 8 hour steps each needing a menu item entry. Now Saami has nicely added pausable crafting. So there is some long projects which could be updated.

The challenge is as new vanilla crafting methods (nets, axes, bows) there is both space needed and a duality that exists. Since a BAC install will overwrite some menus reports are players get confused as to if they dehaft with the new vanilla system they then end up in a BAC menu which doesn't use the same thing and vice versa.

So to avoid the large mod overlap with the least programming it would be good if we could have a modders second letter for making items. We could just stick large mods like BAC there. Then when the game updates, as it should, with new updated items players current games would know to continue with vanilla or BAC. Example being axe making and rehafting are not compatible between 3.82 BAC and 3.82 vanilla.


If you do want to at least see how much was in BAC it was last updated to 3.82 so please use that version of the game. There is short adjustment needed for 3.83. No updating has been put forward for 3.84. Even a few minutes would show you the extent to what BAC grew into.

Please show support for the suggestion thread for the above at:

Mod collision continues to happen with the 3.83 and 3.84 updates with it going to continue to cause conflicts with large mods like the BAC

If you could give us a single key for a craft menu only for modded items it would help greatly. The large BAC mod could be fired up that way with its existing ways of making axes, bows and so on that date back to Bouddia and Rain.

The existing craft menu could remain the same and modders could add to it like now, though knowing that future updates may cause collisons.

Collisions as discussed before happen when updates add items to menus that cause overflow when the total of (new vanilla plus mod items) exceeds the allowed amounts and in the case of the Hafted menu a letter (in this case "H") already being used by a mod.

There are 3 solutions.
= Tiered menu where you open crafting then choose a master menu A, B, C etc but this hasn't been implemented as a heavy coding change

= Co-ordinating the top menu of letters with a large mode like BAC which has already puzzled out things but clearly with "H" for a couple of hafting items isn't of interest

= Give modders a one letter for a seperate modders craft menu. This seems plausible and with limited coding needs. Simply put instead of the "M" for make another letter is u sed to open another craft menu. A craft menu that the dev >NEVER< puts vanilla items into. Instead the large modders can use this as a safe space to figure out on our own large collections such as BAC.

Frankly the ongoing additions of a few items like hand axes and bow making has been modded since long before BAC dating to Bouddia and Rain years ago. I agree that added pausable crafting is a good thing and in time Saami should integrate many of the crafts into vanilla. What is killing the game of those using large mods, and many do use BAC, is the mod collision along the way.

The "modder craft menu" is a more specific lower coding requirement that would support with the large mods. Unreal has long had a commitment and encouragement to modding, such as the initial webpage hosting. Its been years since the first days. You have the success of large mods. For them to function they need to avoid mod collison.

A single separate menu would work for this.

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