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Messages - Erkka

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Suggestions / Re: Torch Holder
« on: October 09, 2020, 08:25:09 PM »
The short burn time is offset by ease of use and ease of manufacture, to allow you to burn as many as needed in a row.

Here I'm thinking how that would be best implemented in the game, regarding the user interface and such. For example, if the player character first ignites a päre for additional light, and then starts a woodworking / crafting operation which would take 3 hours - should there be an option to "automatically start a new päre before the previous one is burnt out", or should we assume the player manually pausing the crafting task every now and then to press a few more keys to start another päre to keep the light going on? Or should it be so coded, that a next päre is automatically lit always when the following conditions are met: "there is a päre-holder with a lit päre in it, and one of the adjacent tiles has a stack of päre, and there also is an npc or the player character occupying a tile which has access to both the stack of päre and the päre-holder. And if so, should we run some additional checks that the mentioned character has at least one operational hand, or should we assume that even when both arms are fractured, the task can be completed by using feet and mouth?"

(sometimes I wonder how seemingly simple additions grow to become surprisingly complex design task when it comes to the actual "how to best simulate this in the game")

Suggestions / Re: Torch Holder
« on: October 09, 2020, 02:09:13 PM »
but I don't know what was in use during the period.

I'm under the impression that candles and primitive oil lamps were for special occasions. For every day use the most common additional source of light was a thin piece of wood called päre. The link shows a wooded stand holding a päre in horizontal position. Such stands were used pretty much like a chandle holder. I'm not exactly sure but I'd guess they often had a bowl of water sitting on the floor, to catch any sparks or red glowing small ambers falling off the burning päre.

One piece of päre would burn for 15 minutes, so it isn't that handy for the kind of constant light we nowadays have in the era of electric light. Burning several päre in a row was the method to provide that necessary additional light when doing some indoor work which required more light than the glow of the fireplace.

(Sometimes I wonder how the Iron Age people survived the dimness of Finnish winter.)

General Discussion / Re: New fire mechanics?
« on: September 24, 2020, 12:17:31 PM »
I answered this post earlier in reddit and I really doubt if this is a spam bot again, considering the suspicious links on the signature.

OK, removed the account.
What I like in our current anti-spam procedure is that most of it runs invisibly, causing no extra steps for a human user. But the downside is that the anti-spam rules aren't always 100% up to date, so every now and then a spambot manages to sneak through the defences.

General Discussion / Re: Third party programs?
« on: September 11, 2020, 07:22:35 AM »
already found in the game. As I understand it, the places I have not been yet are crafted by Schrödinger, and nobody knows what the result will be until you walk into the village so see it.

Yes, the locations of items are unknown until they are found.

I'm just asking to better understand what kind of functionality you are looking for, and for what purpose. Like, what about using the in-game map markers?

Or, is it more like that you found an item and then somehow lost it in the wilderness, and would have a program to scan all the visited areas reporting the items in each location, so that you could find "oh, that is where I accidentally dropped my masterwork tool a few months ago when I was chasing an elk" ?

General Discussion / Re: Third party programs?
« on: September 10, 2020, 07:36:58 AM »
You mean tracking items you have already found in the game?

Or something which would scan the entire world map and tell you if this or that village has a masterwork item, so that you'd know which places to visit to find items of interest?

Hehe, silly me!

I tried searching the web with pieces of text taken from Maxwelll's post, looking if it is a direct copy from a reddit post or something. After several searches I found nothing and was puzzled =)

So, I'll leave this here, if for nothing else then to remind me that next time when I suspect a spambot has got through our defences, I should remember to check both our own forums and reddit posts (and other possible sources of copypaste). When this type of spambots arrived, they started with copypasting old forum topics, and the next generation was smart enough to copypaste posts from reddit. Somehow I already forgot that they had this habit of copypasting (slightly modified pieces) or older forum posts.

Modding / Re: Fish traps?
« on: September 08, 2020, 06:25:16 PM »
Fishing improvements are planned for future versions.

In the meantime I'd guess the best you can do is to mod it the way you've already done. (or maybe even use boards in the recipe, to emulate a liistekatiska). Then just use your modded item the way you'd use a stationary fish trap.

Bug reports / Re: [3.63] Ghost-Spruces in the forest
« on: September 08, 2020, 01:53:46 PM »
There was only dog. And after taking the screenshot I doublechecked it and triple checked it by also stepping on that tile again and check again whats there > A dog and nothing but a dog.

So, to get this bug fixed we would need either

1. a detailed description of steps how to reproduce the conditions for this bug - then we can take those steps at the development side and see what happens in the code and fix the bug.


2. a savegame at the site where the bug has occurred, and any additional details (like the exact location of the tile where it says that a thrown item hits a young spruce when there is nothing there but a dog).

user1805, if you can provide either 1. or 2., please do so. Otherwise we can do nothing but to label this under "vague and random incidents which have been reported once but never seen again, so we really can't know if this is a bug in the game code, or some sort of random interference by other software running on the user's computer."

Off-topic / Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
« on: September 01, 2020, 12:12:30 PM »
Da, no problem!

Also, I'm sorry my writing was again a little bit too vague. I didn't mean to claim that during XV-XVI centuries there were constant raids by Muscovites into Finnish territory. Nor did I mean to portray Finnic tribes as mere innocent victims. For me these are such self-evident basic premises that sometimes I forget to mention them.

Like, earlier in this thread I said: "And not just Novgorod expansion, but probably also Finnic tribes launching (counter)raids into Novgorod territory.", indicating that I'm aware that there was warfare to both directions, raids and counter-raids, strikes and revenge-strikes, and revenge-revenge-revenge -strikes and so on. (Also, Finnish peasants had a regular habit of establishing new settlements in the no-mans land on the Russian side of the border, thus making the border less meaningful, irritating the Russian side when they realized that Finnic tribes are silently expanding their territory. But most of this was not Finnic tribes raiding Russian villages, but just Finnich peasants doing slash-and-burn agriculture in uninhabitated woodlands. This can be considered as some sort of passive warfare, the western side of the peace treaty showing that they don't respect the treaty that much for they feel free to gain new lands east of the border.)

The linked article about Muscovites besieging Vybord also says: "The following year Russian generals Vasily Kosoy and Andrey Chelyadnin severely devastated Swedish Finland as far as Hämeenlinna (Tavastehus)." - sure, that doesn't mean constant raids.

I only meant to post a example that it indeed was possible that there were Muscovite raids into Finnish territory during XV-XVI centuries, and that there is historical evidence of at least one such raiding campaign led by Kosoy and Chelyadnin.

But, sure - this is getting severely offtopic and not that much related to the real-life inspirations of UnReal World game world.

To conclude, I'd like to emphasize that personally I have absolutely no intention to paint this or that historical tribe as "bad" or "evil". I'm not interested in blaming anyone. I think that if we examine history, the best we do is to try learn from the history, so that we and the future generations wouldn't need to repeat the mistakes of the past. Finnic and Russian tribes fighting each other and launching raids and counter-raids has been a historical fact. Personally I wish that things like these would stay in the history and happen no more. I have Russian friends and I've visited the country and I love many aspects of the Russian culture, especially the arts, music and literature.


Off-topic / Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
« on: August 31, 2020, 10:04:43 PM »
Or do you really have historical proofs that Moscow in the XV-XVI centuries raided Finnish territories, which were, in fact, under Swedish protection by that time? Do you really think that was even possible?

Sweden and Novgorod settled their border at Treaty of Nöteborg] at 1323 AD.

I think that after Novgorod fell, the Nöteborg peace treaty was not honoured by Moscow. So there were hostilities on Finnish territory, and the border was more or less disputed. One notable story in Finnish folk stories is the explosion at Viborg Castle, 1495. Muscovites were attacking Finnish city of Viborg, but there was some sort of extraordinary blast which sent the Muscovites fleeing.

Muscovite army fighting a Finnish city at 1495 - is that XV-XVI centuries, or am I mistaken?

Ps. I've also read the comment by user1805, speculating that there could be two other possibilities to explain Njerpez. Okay. I have a Master's Degree in Philosophy, and now I must admit that I'm just confused and fail to properly understand the line of user1805's thoughts. And I can't comment on something I don't understand, so I will be silent of whereof I cannot speak =)

Off-topic / Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
« on: August 31, 2020, 06:17:39 PM »
and user1805 got all hot and bothered by the fact that Novgorod was primary inspiration for their creation.

It is my understanding that this thread leans a bit more to the funnier side. For user1805 didn't get upset about Novgorod being used as the source of inspiration - user1805 got upset about half-educated indie game creators carelessly throwing around claims like "it is now verified that thing X is a historical fact", and was like "how the hell do THEY think they know that?"

Which, naturally, appeared funny for the rest of us, for we didn't understand the misunderstandings of user1805. Apparently, user1805 thought Sami was stating claims about a real historical tribe, when Sami meant to speak about fictional Njerpez and him making verifications about the code simulating Njerpez behavior.

Since user1805 has not been commenting after this clarification was made, I'm not sure if the original topic is settled, but I hope so =)

Also, the original source of the confusion was that in the game the Njerpez are not attempting to conquer the entire UnReal World, but mostly just raiding around the eastern corner of the world. User1805 wanted to cite historical sources against that, presumably thinking that in the game the tribe should be reaching further to the north and to the west, since that is what Novgorod historically did. So, yes, earlier I was also thinking if I should ask Dark Art for more clarification on mentioning the Moscow Russia - I was waiting for user1805 to comment, but that didn't happen. I repeat; user1805 wrote more in the line that "THE NJERPEZ SHOULD BE AIMING TO EXPAND ALL THE WAY TO THE WEST AND TO THE NORTH, so how de hell do you claim that you know that they are raiding on the eastern part of the finnic territory?" I mean, to me it seemed that Dark Art also slightly misunderstood what user1805 tried to say, and then launched counter-arguments against a claim which maybe wasn't even made earlier in this thread. But this is all just human, it happens to all of us so often. And that is why I have this silly habit of stopping to ask for clarifications =)

So what do we have here, then?

If I understand correctly, everyone in this thread agrees that historically speaking Novgorod expanded their territory and raided neighbouring tribes. (Just like many other tribes did as well, and how numerous computer games are today about "be the hero, lead your tribe conquering more territory").

Also, I hope that everyone also agrees that in the game The Njerpez are not, and they do not need to be, 100% historically representation of Novgorod or any other bunch of people. It is fiction, and serves the purposes of the game world. But it has it sources and inspiration in history and Finnish folk stories.(And at this point I'd like to emphasize the "folk stories"-aspect. So, the most exact answer to the question "who were Njerpez" is: "they are inspired by the 'Raiders From the East' theme in the Finnish folk stories', and those folk stories in turn have their source in hundreds of years of hostilities with Finnish and Russian tribes.

So, everyone agrees the central topics of this thread, yes? Anyone, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (for personally I dislike "top-down" mentality as much as user1805 does.)

And then in addition to the original question this thread has had side paths, which is just natural for any human discussion. People feel a need to say aloud a few related thoughts which pop to their mind while reading the main discussion. So here we are; a few misunderstandings, a few semi-related side-remarks, a lot of good historical sources given.

Off-topic / Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
« on: August 31, 2020, 03:47:48 PM »
I do understand that we are dealing with sensitive topics, and this discussion runs the risk of spiralling into fruitless flaming. And personally I don't want to see flamewars on UnReal World forums.

So I'll only ask this one clarification, just to make sure that I have properly understood what is being said by all participants.

Quote from: Ilyich79
But of course for you they all are white and fluffy, only Muskovites (that's how it is spelled, by the way) are bloothirsty tyrants.

I assume that is directed towards Dark Art. I re-read comments by Dark Art, but somehow I failed to find any sentence which claims that only Novgorodians and Muskovites were doing bad stuff. To me it seems that Dark Art just mentions a few unpleasant historical events. So, please Ilyich79, could you enlighten me by quoting a sentence or two from Dark Art, where it is claimed that 1. no other tribes performed nasty raids, or 2. only Novgorod and Muskovites performed nasty raids while others were all white and fluffy.

I mean, I can perfectly well understand that such accusations would be unfair and historically inaccurate, and in need of counterargumentation. The thing just is that in this very thread I can't find such accusations being made, so I'm having hard time understanding exactly what is Ilyich79 argumenting against.

Off-topic / Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
« on: August 24, 2020, 01:01:27 PM »
If the game change log said: "Based on historical references it has now been verified that The Novgrod Russians never did thing X, and therefore in this game release The Njerpez also don't do thing X" then all the questions and arguments by user1805 would be highly on-point.

But, at the moment to me it seems that user1805 just slightly misinterpreted what Sami meant to say in the game change log. I believe Sami meant only to say that "It is intended that Njerpez behave in a way X, and it has now been verified that they really do X in the game."

Then, of course we can have another discussion about if Njerpez should behave this or that way based on fully accurate historical facts about Novgorod Russians. But, to me that seems to miss the point. The game doesn't claim to be 100% historically accurate. Many things are simulated based on historical facts, but not all the things need to be so. Especially the tribes, they contain a lot of artistic freedom. Therefore the game creator can say that "in the fantasy world I created the element X behaves in a way Y because I wanted it that way", and I find it hard for anyone else to counter that. Like, can anyone say that "I don't believe you imagined it that way, you need to imagine it some other way!". I always thought that the very essence of imagination is that anyone can imagine the way they do.

Off-topic / Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
« on: August 24, 2020, 12:37:57 PM »
Let me come back to this: "Now it's been also verified that Njerpez raiders don't ever try to reach regions of western and northern cultures"

Verfied would mean proven. And as the discussion (not only in this thread) refers to history as a main base of the game, to me it looked like someone found a historical proof. From here I thought 'What a hoax, who proofed that?'.

Great, thank you for the clarification!

It is my understanding that in the game release notes "Now it's been also verified that Njerpez raiders ..." means that it has been verified that the game mechanics is functioning the way it is supposed to do. To put in other words; it has been verified that an old bug is now fixed in the game. It is not meant to be a reference to the real history outside the game. I really didn't understand that you took it as such, and I'd guess this has been a source of a lot of confusion in this thread.

I mean; in the real history Novgorod Russian do what they do. In the game world we have artistic freedom to decide what we want The Njerpez tribe to do, and for that the creators' decision is enough. So we have decided that we want them to be wandering mainly and mostly around the Eastern cultures of The UnReal World.

Off-topic / Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
« on: August 24, 2020, 07:20:51 AM »
But what was the real name of the tribe that come in focus and around what year was it?

I'm sorry if my previous reply was too unclear. Here comes a clarified reply:

Q: What was the real name of the tribe?
A: Novgorod Russians

Q: Around what year was it?
A: 1000 AD - 1200 AD

It is true that I'm not a Historian M.A. But I did study some folkloristics at the University. Naturally, that doesn't mean that I would be an unquestioned source of the ultimate truth. As always in science, we need further references, and we need to back our claims by evidence and we need to question the evidence, and we need to provide our sources etc etc. Honouring those principles I gave a few links in my previous reply. Especially this wikipedia article. Sure, again we can say that wikipedia is not a fully reliable source. But that article has further references, so if you are interested you can dig further and read books, or the original sources like Novgorod First Chronicle.

Naturally, all of this can be questioned, as counterarguments are a crucial part of scientific thinking. One counterargument provided in an earlier comment was:

5. They could not have been russians because on the one hand side there also must have been swedes, which are not been found and on the other hand side the etymological reference does not fit, because the referring tribe is on the wrong side of the map.

It is very likely that I fail to understand the argument correctly. From my point of view the premises of that argument are somewhat vague. I'll provide a more detailed examination:

- the game takes place in a fantasy world which is inspired by real history. I fail to understand the argument that "if there are russians there also mut have been swedes". The only way I can understand this argument would lead to including the whole world in UnReal World, like "if you include tribe X, you must also include the other tribes which had interaction with X, and after that you also need to include further tribes which had interaction with them, and their neighbours also and then the tribes living near them and so and so on". But the answer is that no, we don't need to. In a fantasy game world we can choose what to include, where to focus and what to leave outside the game world.

- Also, I'm not so sure about the "swedes have not been found in UnReal World" part. The swedes are included in Foreign Traders.

- "the etymological reference does not fit, because the referring tribe is on the wrong side of the map" leaves me rather puzzled. As stated earlier, the word "Njerpez" is my own invention, a pseudo word. So there isn't that much of etymology to the word. It is just onomatopoeia in action. Also, the UnReal World map is not an accurate copy of real world map, so directions and dimensions could well be altered because of fantasy. But, funnily enough, in the case of Njerpez the geographical reference is accurate. Just like in the real history, seen from the viewpoint of Finnic tribes the Njerpez / The Novgorod Russians come from South-East. But, the thing is, that as a person who drafted this fantasy world, and the locations of the tribes, my brain is probably too stuck with the way I see it, so I'm having hard time wrapping my mind around some alternative way of seeing how "this or that tribe is on the wrong side of the map". I'll be happy to broaden my perspectives if provided a clear explanation which a half-educated mountain man like me can understand.

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