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reflections from a modding enthusiast on external assets vs. core
Thanks for providing more insight on what remodeling mod support might look like from a developer's perspective. It really is a beast that requires careful thinking through several possible modes of approach (if it must be approached at all...!) I currently use Weathereye's Mod Loader for Windows to set the priority of my active mods and perform other simple mod management tasks. This tool would surely be at risk of breaking if a major rewrite of game versus modding data should be undertaken, but the pain of its loss will be lessened if mod management were to be handled natively. (The rest of this post is largely a testimonial about how I use the the mod loader.) Graphic edits make up the bulk of my modlist in determining overwrite priority. Outside of my game directory, I maintain a spreadsheet that keeps track of which mod source should be overwriting what image file. But once I have the modlist order sorted out, my method veers into micromanagement: whatever images not being used in my load order get moved to the mod's name-root folder to ensure these specific files never interact with truetile + truegfx subfolders. This step may seem redundant since overwrite priority is in place, but at least I can go browsing through fairly tidy subfolders. One ardent wish I have on the graphics-side of modding is support for additional truetile variant indices. As much as I enjoy seeing the sprite artworks that members of the community were inspired to create for replacer mods, the impossibility of simultaneously using all these files feels unfortunate. For instance, tree terrain tiles are limited to displaying 2-3 variants at most (including broadleaf trees in winter mode), but I would love to wander through woodlands populated with a mix of Krutzel's Spirited Sprites having both its tall and standard-height trees alongside kullervo's trees. As for crafting, it's honestly a lot easier for me to dump a distribution of BAC (or other recipe-heavy mods) into a separate folder where it remains inactive but still available as reference material. With my active "BAC lite" folder, I'm at liberty to adapt excerpts from the parent mod and reorganize recipes according to my own idiosyncratic sense of order. I give a similar treatment to new releases of URW: my Steam installation stays clean, previous versions are backed up in compressed folders, and the copy of my updated directory with the external mod loader will have as many or as few add-ons as I desire depending on which modlist is enabled. In general, I consider mod-induced compatibility issues to be a natural consequence that players will inevitably struggle with. Building around the existing architecture is the furthest extent of what the majority of us are capable of; both the naive newcomer and the returning veteran will be in for a shock when they realize a particular modded setup happens to clash with the introduction of new standards in the metaphorical 'building regulations'. I try to keep my own build flexible, but there's no pressure on me because I'm the primary beneficiary whom my modding endeavors are centred around. Brygun's passion for documenting and preserving the self-sufficiency tradition has an unfortunate side-effect of painting a target on his back since it's his username that people mainly associate with the modpack (and thus, there'll be someone available to blame when something goes wrong, however unfair that attitude is.) Now, it certainly won't be detrimental for a person to learn how to read the modding syntax or do tests to figure out how to troubleshoot, but not everybody is equally motivated to invest in these skills 'just to play a game'. This subsection of players will definitely miss out on a lot of gems that are found in the game's primary source of documentation: news.txt It surely adds to one's enjoyment to find out how things work under the hood, but even without the external assets URW is super engaging on its own. (I personally spent 3 years completely ignorant of mods because reading forums seemed less interesting at the time...) Streamlining mod integrations may sound nice in theory, but I'm worried that it will be a rocky road for a while before we reach a smooth grade. Rolling towards the destination might not feel worth the effort if the external tools I'm using now should cease to function before a replacement is ready - but a fear of future discomfort oughtn't impede me from enjoying what already exists in the present (especially since I exercised responsibility for preserving my current 'quality of life' through having a bunch of backups.) May 05, 2024, 03:05:03 AM |
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Re: Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods
Welp, time to also throw in my two cents - I'm one of the old legacy people who have purchased it, back in ye olden days, so I feel like I've got some experience under my belt. I eventually stumbled upon the BAC mod while looking on how to enhance my gameplay, given I've been playing UrW for quite a while, and as a result I basically never play without it anymore. Why? The game as it stands, is what you make of it: no overarching story, no fun little quirkiness to uncover, just pure, unadulterated survival, and that is great. HOWEVER - to be long time invested into something like that, the game needs to have enough content to support the long gamespan we are talking about in those runs, which is where the BAC mod comes in. It appears that the game as of right now is simply limited in amount of keyspaces available to properly distribute all the menus and submenus when one wants to run the game with a big addition mod like BAC. Is it a problem now for vanilla? No, but depending on how UrW is going to be developing moving forward, this would eventually become an issue either way, simply because there is only so many combinations of menu and submenu buttons available, and a mod that adds quite a lot of things faithful to the setting has managed to approach this limit. I am however very much agreeing with Erkka that it should be modders making sure the mod is compatible with the game evolving, but since the amount of mod entries have grown to absolutely massive sizes, with Brygun basically curating the quite huge BAC mod all by himself, this is gonna take a good while. And until either a deeper submenu system is coded in that allows to have an extra level deeper of menus to access, or an entirely different mod make menu as requested, where the entirety of mods can be placed in, this is also going to repeat itself - And this takes time. BAC wasn't even done fully converting the entries to the by then still out 3.83 when 3.84 dropped from what I've seen, as I have seen still additions just days prior the new update coming. And I have to say, it does not feel unreasonable to make a request towards the developers, accomodating the ever growing modding community because of the games limits. When BAC has already reached the point of having to scrap portations, as well as fusing components like nails and rivets, then that only really shows that this can truly become an issue going forward. May 07, 2024, 07:34:52 PM |
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Re: What's Going On In Your Unreal World?
Created a new side character for a challenge. Wanted to do a vegetarian pacifist run. No killing, hunting or fishing or eating meat in any form. Only exception would be milk. Two weeks in stumbled upon an abandoned settlement with a sauna and a small cottage. Settled there and traded handcrafts, my weapons and all my clothing for two sheep for milk. Settled at the abandoned site that happened to be on a 3 tile island already cleared of trees. Perfect spot for agriculture. Started in spring and had to scrape by eating leaves and grass to start. Milk helps immensely and now onlu 15% staving 
May 08, 2024, 01:02:11 PM |
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Re: What's Going On In Your Unreal World?
Created a new side character for a challenge. Wanted to do a vegetarian pacifist run. No killing, hunting or fishing or eating meat in any form. Only exception would be milk. Update. No longer starving. Got my hands on some turnips and gathered a lange bunch of bear- and dogpipe. These seem to be quite enough, complimented with a gulp of milk every day, to keep one from starving. Soon it's harvest time and I plan on trading most of my harvest for something to wear before winter comes. I opted to refuse wearing fur as well, so that will be quite the callenge. May 14, 2024, 06:06:12 PM |
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Re: Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods
Here comes a brief catch-up with the replies I haven't yet responded. The discussion may continue and possible changes are being pondered accordingly. Amid all the other issues at hand, that is.One ardent wish I have on the graphics-side of modding is support for additional truetile variant indices. As much as I enjoy seeing the sprite artworks that members of the community were inspired to create for replacer mods, the impossibility of simultaneously using all these files feels unfortunate. Increasing the possible number of variants and for wider range of tiles could indeed enhance the experience regardless of it being thought of being a modding feature. In the future we're evidently need to undergo a greater graphics update, once again, which will require serious rewrite of the graphics engine. More variants possibility might get considered then, but for now it is a low priority. Plus, having started with mere ASCII graphics the game has always been developed from the content over graphics perspective. And it shows.  (And as a curiosity the most frequently popping up graphics suggestion over the past decade has been probably to go for 3D.) Quote Streamlining mod integrations may sound nice in theory, but I'm worried that it will be a rocky road for a while before we reach a smooth grade. I believe you're quite right with that. Hence the careful considerations will save both my and modders time. Dedicated hotkey for mods would make sense. Easy and quick editing was indeed one of the key elements I had in mind when modding was introduced. Just drop in a snippet of modding code and it's in effect. Or to adjust the recipe if you'd personally prefer it the other way. With dedicated mods make menu there would be indeed separation between the original recipes and modded recipes, both in menu level and editable text files level. Of course the original diy_* etc. files would still remain editable, and new file snippets could be added, and the edits and additions for those would appear in the original make menu. Mod recipes would appear in mods make menu. So with an example of making wooden stakes you could still quickly add your own "wooden stakes from boards" diy_* snippet to the original recipes and it would appear in the original Make menu. Or you could also make your own lumber (or whatever you want to name it) category as a mod diy_* and it would appear there in the mod make menu. Quote Also for reading all the recipes at game launch, it’d make testing mods a massive pain. Edit, save mod. Shutdown, start game. Find a need to edit further. Repeat. Hmm. I'm not sure if I managed to describe it correctly. I'll try again. Let's assume you're creating your own mod, and there are no other mods installed. You would not get any extra hassle, the game wouldn't notify you of any modding conflicts. Let's say your own mod would have recipes for four items: Round item, square item, long item and short item. Excellent. Now let's imagine Player X likes your mod and installs it. After a while Player X decides to create his own mod for crafting long item, as he prefers it to be done the other way. Player X is very happy with the rest of the items in your mod and doesn't want to touch them. Now if Player X would install his own mod on top of your mod there would be two mods with a recipe for long item. In this case the game would check and somehow confirm if the player would like to use your recipe or Player X's recipe for crafting long item. Something like this needs to be done anyway if the problem now is that all the space and available entries get eaten up and reserved. Otherwise mods that would modify or add the same recipes to any extent can't co-exist. Yes, they can't co-exist currently either, and players need to shuffle with loaders, manual editing and stuff. But to invest time to add a separate mod make menu which would exclude different mods to co-exists once it's (yet again) filled all up would be waste of (my) time from my perspective. Welp, time to also throw in my two cents - I'm one of the old legacy people who have purchased it, back in ye olden days, so I feel like I've got some experience under my belt. Yeah, after years or decades of roaming the unreal world it's truly so in my opinion too that modded stuff can answer to "hmm, what should I do next" feelings, or to the classical "end-game" boredom. The game is indeed very much what you make of it, even though I would phrase the rest of sentence a differently. And well, as far as I am concerned it's very much confirmed that the game has enough content to support long gamespan. Which of course is debatable and varies between the players and playstyle. Heh, and with a such freedom allowing beast of like UrW the thing is that there's never enough content for everyone, no matter how much is added. (This a fact pretty much all the devs have to live with.) Quote And I have to say, it does not feel unreasonable to make a request towards the developers, accomodating the ever growing modding community because of the games limits. We do have suggestions forum, where suggestions can be posted, and we are constantly - and I truly mean constantly - being asked, requested, suggested and sometimes plain commanded to do this and that. With good manners suggestions are not unreasonable. What is unreasonable is to expect all of them to happen. However, for years already we've passed the critical mass point of suggestion flood and still fortunately remain a rare example of developers actually (still) communicating with the players and taking their thoughts into consideration. If the probable modders are counted in hundreds the players are nowadays counted in tens of thousands. Speaking of game limits, I can't resist of inventing a developer's aphorism/koan of the day: Does Tetris game have a limit of not featuring table tennis mode? I don't think it would hurt for the developers to look at mods occasionally to get some additional perspective on intended new functionality. Not as "this is how it has to be", but rather to provide aspects they may not have thought of. Also, a proper implementation would not be restricted by the same constraints mods have. However, the developers obviously have to manage their time, and looking at mods may well end up in the "no time for this now" bucket constantly. I think we have quite good understanding of the most wanted features from the suggestions sections already, where also new things to craft are also popping up. I also get the picture that things that are on the development roadmap are being modded also. For us, to stay on track, it's the suggestions section where we expect the new ideas and features to be presented and there they remain nicely and easily accessible when looking for new features consider. And for most of the suggestions I usually get "yes, yes, that would be nice, in time, hopefully." feeling My personal to-do list actually doesn't go shorter but longer with every version release. This may sound odd, but it's a fact.
May 22, 2024, 07:08:58 PM |
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Re: Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods
Ok, so I want to address the "small bunch", and take it as you will. Modders are definitely a minority, and in some games those who use mods are also a majority. The main goal of mods should be to increase a players play time, so they remain engaged with the game. I think that's something BAC achieves, but as stated every update is a potential issue and not just for this mod, the collisions can happen with small mods too, leading to confusion for players who are not modders but use mods. I'm also not convinced that the figure stated about mod downloads really expresses the number of users who have likely used BAC over the lifetime of the game let alone other mods. This really isn't just a conversation about BAC, it's a question of how can we make the CREATION of mods easier and also make the USE of mods easier, to extend the playtime of the average player, isn't it? I agree that it doesn't solve all ills, but it seems like a good relatively low cost option compared with the alternatives and better design ideas (like having an item identifier system that allows preloading/overlapping/replacement as stated). Is it a good use of developer time? Well that's a question I think we'll disagree on, but I think the potential improvement to the average player engagement time might be worth it, not just for BAC and current mods, but for future users making new mods that may be easier to maintain and therefore longer lived. Things like BAC do not occur commonly in a lot of larger modding communities because of how difficult it becomes to maintain, so any barrier is a problem. You're also likely not going to get a TON of interaction on this thread because a) a lot of people are interested but don't know enough to contribute to the discussion, even some modders since modding here is so simple they don't need to know any programming at all, and b) people ebb and flow to this game, picking it up and putting it down often so the number of active people isn't always high, I tend to look only when there's an update and if I like it I play it for a few months and I know others do to. Something to consider. Thanks Brygun for BAC all these years and thanks Sami for the game. Appreciate you both very much. May 30, 2024, 12:16:04 AM |
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Light my shingle
A new light source is coming up as we'll be adding shingles to the game. A shingle, or päre (in finnish), is a thin oblong piece of (pine) wood which were burned to produce light, and to make baskets as well. As a light source you may think them as all wooden candle of a sort. It may feel like a just one small item for an adventurer in the dark cabin, but the required and atmospheric additions will make producing and using shingles a rather significant feature. Traditionally shingles were burnt in a shingle holder which is a stand that keeps the shingle in a good angle for proper lighting and burning. It may be that they were also sometimes just inserted between the logs in the wall - but one had to be understandably cautious without a proper holder. I don't know yet if a shingle holder will be required in the game but the idea is that you could leave a burning shingle in place eg. inside your cabin. And moreover, as the shingles don't burn very long we would want to feature automatic "replace a shingle" mechanism where a new shingle eg. from a pile next the burning one, would be lighted automatically if the character is beside the burning shingle when it fades out. This way you could light a shingle, put a pile of new ones beside it, and not need to worry about replacing the burning shingle in time even if the task you were doing would take a long time. Here's an image of a shingle in a simple single holder. More shingle news will be posted when the things have proceeded further. And in the background the transition to pausable crafting continues. Oddities with the pausable mechanics have been pleasantly scarce in the latest release so we're on good roll with it. These are future features - not yet functional in current version 3.84.2 May 31, 2024, 12:35:32 PM |
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Re: Light my shingle
This is going to be an excellent addition. In some remote villages in Russia shingles were used as an indoor light source until XX century. Also, a widespread practice was to put a tub of water beneath the burning shingle to extinguish the falling embers, this also very slightly increased the illumination as the water in the tub reflected the light. I wonder if this was also a custom in Finland. If this is the case, it could be nice to implement this in-game, like a tiny increase of illumination, and lowering chances of accidental house fire (if/when it gets implemented) when using a water tub.
June 01, 2024, 03:02:48 PM |
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Re: Light my shingle
In some remote villages in Russia shingles were used as an indoor light source until XX century. Also, a widespread practice was to put a tub of water beneath the burning shingle to extinguish the falling embers, this also very slightly increased the illumination as the water in the tub reflected the light. I wonder if this was also a custom in Finland. If this is the case, it could be nice to implement this in-game, like a tiny increase of illumination, and lowering chances of accidental house fire (if/when it gets implemented) when using a water tub. Yes, it seems the customs with shingles were pretty similar here in Finland as well. Shingles were used still at the end 19th century. And water tubs were also used for fire safety, but I haven't came across mentions of their illumination increase. That's quite an interesting aspect to it! However, there were also shingle holders that could take multiple shingles so that was also one way to increase light power. In the game this could be done by setting multiple shingles next to each others. Well, we'll see where it goes with shingles. They truly do open up possibilities for many additional features. June 02, 2024, 05:43:24 PM |
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Re: What's Going On In Your Unreal World?
It's been a while, and now I'm thinking about my young virtual survivor, sunk in virtual snow, within his virtual forest. Squatted by the side of a frozen lake, a white vastness that greets him every morning, while embers dance out of a dead bonfire, under lazy winds. The sweat upon his face struggles against a cold, jealous atmosphere, which drinks on the heat that escapes from his limbs - certainly against his will. Another tree down, another log, another piece of wood he will turn into a cup, a plate, a toy, perhaps, if imagination helps. And maybe later on he might walk north, towards the village, trading his trinkets for a loaf of bread and a piece of fish. Small talk, some laughter, a few moments within wooden walls, and he might even remember what it means to care and be cared for. Ultimately, however, he will go back to his lake and his figurines, to the silence of still waters, to meditate on the figments of his own existence and try to bring that cacophony of thoughts and memories to a reasonable conclusion. And I'm under the impression he would be miserable without this sort of solitude to keep him company. June 21, 2024, 08:19:53 PM |
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