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UnReal World => Bug reports => Topic started by: Brygun on December 19, 2020, 10:35:22 AM

Title: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: Brygun on December 19, 2020, 10:35:22 AM
In Tukka's journies I had an elk skin on de-hair scheduled for the 5th day of the last week to midsummer. In his travels, which Ive being blogging, he was at the camp and checking on the hair. I recall seeing 3 days left on it and that would put it at this time.

On the scheduled day Tuukka is at his farming camp. He arrives in daylight on that very same scheduled day.

The elk hide de-hairing is found rotted.

Thats within 24 hours on something that was something for 10 days. Probably within 12 hours.

The rate of rotting on dehairing needs to be broadened or some other bug happened.

Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: PALU on December 19, 2020, 10:43:39 AM
It seems the degrading check is performed during the "morning" section when the day ticks over, and if you're unlucky, you can have your meat degrade (to stale) on the first such turn over. If the hide was in the worst state when set to being dehaired I can imagine that it could degrade the last step into rotten on the day turnover from the end of the dehairing session.

However, I would assume the hide was in a decent condition when the process was started, in which case the decay rate would be too high.
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: Brygun on December 20, 2020, 09:59:10 PM
Perhaps with things taking so long to process a tweak could be made to lower the degradation one day each step. This would garauntee that the player has at least a full 24 hours to get back.

In Tuukka's case he wasn't very far away, as in a few wilderness tiles, and had checked a couple days earlier. The instant rot is a bit frustrating.
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: Dr.Hossa on December 20, 2020, 11:01:51 PM
I've never been measuring it, but i wasted so much leather that one day i decided to only de-hair hides when i am constantly at home, like in winter for example.
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: Brygun on December 21, 2020, 08:08:40 AM
It is proving a bit too finicking on the fur tanning of large hides. Did something get changed?

Tuukka caught an elk in a pit trap right outside his smoke house. Between the tanning, butchering and smoking phases it took a day or two to do all those chores. The hide skin and clean was the very first step. The butchering had to be done to get the animal fat. The hide from this same kill had been cleaned and on first tanning step (where you apply the fat).

When Tuukka woke up the next day that hide is now rotten.

Its apparently our choice now to either get a skin or a hide not both. This doesn't get much better than having the elk caught on the same wilderness tile as your house and yet the hide rotted.

Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: jonottawa on December 21, 2020, 05:48:59 PM
Yes, there is definitely a bug/feature around leather rotting before it is scheduled for the next step in the tanning process but I had thought it was because I traveled too far away. I have lost a few bear leathers that way.
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: jonottawa on December 21, 2020, 06:02:29 PM
It is proving a bit too finicking on the fur tanning of large hides. Did something get changed?

Tuukka caught an elk in a pit trap right outside his smoke house. Between the tanning, butchering and smoking phases it took a day or two to do all those chores. The hide skin and clean was the very first step. The butchering had to be done to get the animal fat. The hide from this same kill had been cleaned and on first tanning step (where you apply the fat).

When Tuukka woke up the next day that hide is now rotten.

Its apparently our choice now to either get a skin or a hide not both. This doesn't get much better than having the elk caught on the same wilderness tile as your house and yet the hide rotted.
I've never seen this issue. The issue I've seen ONLY pertains to LEATHER rotting (while it soaks) ahead of schedule. Processing a single elk (fur/meat) shouldn't be an issue if one focuses solely on that task and hits the timers in a logical order.
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: Brygun on December 21, 2020, 07:29:27 PM
It may be affected by;

= The animal fat coming out last not first from the butchering, it took a sleep cycle (8 hours) to get through the 300+ lb beast
Solution: shift animal fat to come off first not at the end of butchering
simulates the fat being under the skin or braking open the skull for the tanning material asap

= question: is the timer on the hide started once you have it off the animal or when the animal is first put on the map?
In the case sample of Tuukka returning to find an elk he had been on a ~3 week journey to meet a quest giving sage back at an old village. The animal could have been in the trap anywhere over that month.


Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: JP_Finn on December 22, 2020, 05:14:37 AM
The skin ‘spoilage-timer’ starts when the animal dies. Not on map entry, nor skinning.

The tanning and de-hairing timers are related to the weight. I think checking the timers/algorithm on the de-hairing of largest skins might be a good place to start.

One way to prioritize the tanning procedure is to keep extra sheets of alder/rowan bark available. Applying tanning agent is easy task and reduces fatigue... so less time spent resting between tasks. (Yes, no skill penalty butchering, but won’t be too fatigued to move after big animal butchering)
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: Brygun on December 22, 2020, 06:49:58 AM
The large animals do seem to need longer timers.

if you factor in the butchering time to get the fat >at the end< you need one if not two sleep cycles so its 24 hours plus

Again, if we got the fat at the beginning you could do that better

I managed one by using bark not the fat for tanning so I could tan right away. Bit of problem that the bark is now a seasonal access and wow... do you go through it fast tanning.

Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: JP_Finn on December 22, 2020, 07:18:04 AM
While I do fully agree with you on the timers needing a check/fix.
I don’t go big game hunting without bearpipes. (As long as you can stay awake 20-30min after eating bear pipe, your vigor goes up to Lively. Often I kill elk or bear, skin it, maybe clean it before getting weary/extremely tired, ear bear pipe, get to tanning with bark or butcher the  beast and then tan.
Some times the kill is closer and the character is vigorous/lively to begin with. Then it’s easy to skin, clean, butcher, /haul to base or /tan. Without the bear pipe. Some times hauling the skin/meat to base/cabin pushes the toon to extremely tired and I want the meat in cellar during warm times *before* morning, and the day ticking over.

Lately I’ve been rolling characters with weight over 220lbs, and those big guys, they haul a bear whole to base. Sometimes even pre-butchered elk.

Until the timers get checked, I’ll keep bear pipe on me at any time I think there’s a chance to bump into big game (which is always outside base/homestead/farm plot/local lake, river, or sea when fishing.
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: PALU on December 22, 2020, 02:18:02 PM
If you use bark to tan then you've got a piece of fat in store for the next kill (assuming it hasn't gone off in the mean time).

I'm not sure I've had to sleep twice to do the first pass of elk skin tanning (i.e. the first step called tanning). It's not unusual to immediately fall asleep at the end of that step, though, as I push my characters to get through this step as quickly as possible.
- Haul skin and as much meat as possible back to base and cellar (after skinning/butchering, which may have resulted in a sleep if at the end of the day).
- Clean/tan skin
- Collect the rest of the meat (can be done before the previous step if not summer).
- Process as much meat as possible, but break off as soon as the skin needs its second pass. In this case there may be need for a second sleep before all the meat has been processed, but the skin should be in its second stage.
- Process the last of the meat
- Possibly strategic sleep to be prepared for the fight to beat up the skin.

I haven't used bear pipe as much as I should (probably only once), but really ought to include it in the equation during summer.
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: Brygun on December 22, 2020, 02:48:08 PM
1) Bark is only harvestable in early summer (now). So stocks get depleted fast. For large animals I've used up3-4 pieces of bark to get enough. Now nearing midwinter the stocks are just about used up.

2) The animal's own fat is supposed to be useable to tan the same animal. Currently you only get the fat at the end of butchering. For a 300 lb kill that is going to be after hours if not forcing a sleep. Bear in mind you could already be tired when you find or catch the animal.



Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: JP_Finn on December 22, 2020, 05:34:34 PM
Meat processing in winter isn't needed, just push the entire pile (-1) to nearest tree or boulder to keep wild life and dogs from eating it.
It'll preserve fine until spring.

I'm not sure why there's 2nd sleep in your scenario, unless woken up by rain/noise before Vigorous. eating a Bearpipe before passing out at "ready to drop" will speed the sleep duration from ~12h to mere ~2-3h (takes 1/2h to kick in, boost to Lively, then sleep to vigorous. e.g. Ready to Drop at Little Hours, eat bearpipe, lay down to sleep. Wake up Early morning-Morning at Vigorous.

Yeah sadly Bark isn't harvestable in the cold/frozen weather. It should be doable to get bark scraped off and boiled into tanning liquid.

I try to harvest tanning and crafting bark in the early summer after "stabilizing" from spring start, before plants are ready for harvest. (time it with cabin build et cetera) 30-40 pieces should do in the few cases when already "Extremely tired"  when making the kill.

Also trying to time the skinning to finish just after day-tick at Morning, or well before to have time to clean&applying tanning agent.
fresh killed carcass hasn't ever lost 'condition level' for me over the day-ticking over, but sometimes, the skin might.

Still, I do agree to have the spoilage timers checked on tanning/de-hairing large skins.

IRL, when I don't have time/interest/energy to work on skins, (from hunting) I lay them between newspaper sheets and roll up. Put them in freezer for later processing. No noticeable deterioration in at least 4months. i.e. winter time skin shouldn't rot. except when left too long with tanning agent on them. Fresh skin, clean skin, rinsed skin all should "stay good until spring"
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: Brygun on December 22, 2020, 08:47:41 PM
Maybe one help could be for the multiple day de-hair and cure that it no longer references when the kill was taken but when that process was to finish. That way you have a few days from a many day activity to get to it.

As for the one time the skin rotted so quickly Im both surprised it happened but it didnt repeat on my next ones. Might well have been bad luck on the day timers.

Still agree the large hides need to consider the scenarios vs real life.
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: Brygun on December 22, 2020, 09:49:51 PM
So here is a test file

Tuukka has another elk.

I was attempting to make leather with the elk's own fat.

This time by the time I got the skin off, the hide cleaned, and started the de-hair. The butchering was started. One batch of 50 smoke cuts was started. The butchering was continued.

When he woke up to continue to the butchering...

... the carcass is rotted.

That means no access to the fat.

I was worried about this happening so made the zip to test doing A-B-C  or A-C-B etc jumbles to try and pin down more info for Saami.

It is Day 1 of the 13th week before midwinter. Temp is above freezing. There was rain and snow.

>>>

So the file is to big to attach but is available on request for testing
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: Brygun on December 22, 2020, 09:55:24 PM
Reran the test

On load the character is exhausted with a clean-elk-skin in inventory. The partially butchered animal is a little east next to the pit trap.

Was able to get the fat if no cooking was started.

The butchering end time is "after midnight" so I guess if it clicked into morning? or the following morning the butchering is not possible as the elk is rotted.


>>>

With the butchering and de-hair steps done the time taking to get things cooking meands the last ~75 cuts were already showing "stale" when they started smoking.


Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: jonottawa on December 22, 2020, 10:29:25 PM
Challenge accepted. Let me know where I can download the file from.
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: Brygun on December 23, 2020, 02:11:08 AM
ERm.... I havent used an upload site in years

You can PM me an email? will that work for you?



https://www.dropbox.com/s/h6aixsrzvidsfbs/Test%20elk%20leather%20001.7z?dl=0

Tuuka is at his cabin. The clean elk hide is in his inventory. The elk carcass is ~20 local tiles east about ~10 tiles south of the rapids. It is just north of the pit trap in which it was caught.

The tanning station is the land north of the cabin, where Tukka is sanding.  There is a tree trunk and rock for stretching hide. There is only supply of remaining barks on the log if you want to experiment with them.
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: jonottawa on December 23, 2020, 04:22:02 AM
Thank-you, sir.
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: Buoidda on December 23, 2020, 07:34:11 AM
I loaded the test too. I put the skin in the cellar and went straight to the carcass. Then I started this cycle:

Sleep. Wake from the rain. (It always seems to rain if you're drop dead tired and outside. Doesn't it?) Cut carcass. Try to pick it up. Repeat.

Using this cycle, I was able to carry the largely cut carcass and the meat into the cellar.

After everything in the cellar: Went inside to sleep. Did eat before going to sleep. (Sometimes useful not to - to wake earlier.)

Once waking up, I cut the rest of the carcass, got fat and dropped it in to the cellar. Only after that I picked up the cleaned skin and went to soak it.

78 stale cuts and the rest are still 'normal'. Ample time to smoke. The fat should stay fine in the cellar.

EDIT: Reading the log below, it looks like I tripped in to the cellar in the morning  :D

EDIT: In current urw version one should put the fresh skin into the cellar and cut the whole carcass asap. Then clean the skin. A dedicated tanning cellar near waterline helps too - though not very realistic/immersive. Hopefully suggestion on field dressing and quartering (https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=5251.0) passes. It would make initial butchering faster.
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: Brygun on December 23, 2020, 03:52:00 PM
On my second load focusing on the hide, delaying cooking came off okay.

I think there is a narrow window on the de-hair to find it though.

I have had fats spoil in cellars too, probably early fall so warmer.

Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: jonottawa on December 28, 2020, 04:49:23 AM
I meant to get to this sooner.

In spite of being grossly inefficient and bumbling my way through this, I managed to smoke all the meat (no stale meat, no spoiled meat) and begin the soaking process on the leather on my first attempt.

https://youtu.be/4jYcqInX4K8 (https://youtu.be/4jYcqInX4K8)

Verdict: As expected, not a bug.

And just because my first attempt was so cringeworthy (albeit successful) I made a 2nd attempt that went a little more smoothly:

https://youtu.be/VJeG5k8mO5Y  (https://youtu.be/VJeG5k8mO5Y)
Title: Re: De-hair rotted within 24 hours or less
Post by: Brygun on January 03, 2021, 08:09:15 AM
I was working on another elk hide.

I was doing agriculture burning and turning soil but often sleeping at the cabin where the hide is.

I could have missed 1, 2 and most 3 days. This is after the elk hide had been soaking for the 10? 12? days. I had gotten through a follow up step to tan. Its now rotted before I can rinse it.

There really is a too small of a margin of error for these big hides.