UnReal World forums
UnReal World => General Discussion => Topic started by: Erkka on October 29, 2020, 10:05:27 AM
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Hello!
This is Erkka from the Enormous Elk development team. We are planning an another game as a small side-project. To make this happen we'd like to set up a crowdfunding campaign on IndieGoGo platform. The plan is to use Discord as the main platform during the development phase, so that there would be weekly updates on development progress, and monthly Q&A sessions (hopefully with a video stream). I think the funding phase would run for three weeks, aiming to have the first playable alpha or beta version before the end of this year.
To maintain the suspense, we will announce the project details only a few days before the crowdfunding campaign starts (before mid-November, that is). But what I can say already now is that the game would run on Windows, Linux and Android, also aiming for Mac and iPhone release pretty soon after the non-apple release. And also, in case you wonder - from the development point of view a side-project is beneficial also for the actual UnReal World development; a smaller sibling game would double as an experimental laboratory, where different kinds of algorithms and ideas can be tested.
So, at this point - before I start to set up an IndieGoGo campaign - I'd like to ask for your thoughts, ideas or personal preferences. What kind of perks would you like to see, for what sum of money? If you have ideas, please post replies suggesting things like "can we have a €25 perk for an access to the monthly live video streams?". Also, it would be cool if someone provides their views on perk range, like "Because of these reasons [....] I think that the minimum perk should be X euros for perk Z1, ranging up to Y euros for perk Zn" Or, what kinds of perks would you love? Digital content like music or concept art? A physical item like copies of game graphics design drawings, or a hand-written thank you card?
Ps. More news in the weekend. I'm planning a blog post about my personal thoughts and the process of preparing for the project. In the blog post there will also be a bit more details about the project plans.
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No thank you.
There's still a shit load of stuff to add in UnReal World - looking at the roadmap.
This will surely slow down the development of the "flagship", no?
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This will surely slow down the development of the "flagship", no?
We aim to have it the other way around. Personally, I'd love to quit my main work to be a full-time indie game developer, so that in the future I would have more coding time to help Sami with UnReal World development. After considering various different ways of taking this leap the chosen tactics is a crowdfunding campaign for a small side-game project.
For so many years I have had trouble with finding proper coding time next to my main work. The time has come to ditch my other odd jobs. I do believe that taking this leap will eventually lead to boostin UnReal World development, instead of slowing it down.
EDIT: to clarify; the mentioned side-project is not intended to be a long-term development like UnReal World is. The plan is to spend a few months coding a release version (1.0), then slow down for a few more additional versions (like 1.1 or 1.2), eventually leaving the side-project as it is, so that there will be more time to concentrate on UnReal World development. So, this another game is just a temporary transition phase.
And, as mentioned: an another game could also double as a test environment to develop and to polish algorithms before implementing them in UnReal World. For example, back in the time when I was coding the weather simulation for UrW, I first coded a tiny text-based test environment. I ran hundreds of tests in the sandbox environment so that I got the details of the simulation polished, before the whole thing was implemented in the main game. Now I'm planning a full stand-alone small game, partially for the same reason - to have a sandbox where I can experiment with various algorithms. But this is purely to coder point of view - for the player that mentioned small game would naturally be a fully playable and fully enjoyable game in itself.
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A lot of crowdfunding tends to price themself high. E.g. perks/packages in hundreds and even thousands of $/€/£/¥.
It can be a money maker and your comment on being able to ditch other side jobs is honest approach. A full size A-title games sell for about €60. So that should be a “gold standard” to aim for. Higher price support packages should get something concrete; physical merchandise, autographed storyboards/comic of the game etc. or have a ingame representation of their avatar/character (within good taste and retaining immersion of course)
$10 “I believe in you”
$30 early access beta/monthly updates
$60 above and alpha access
$100 above and mention in credits
$250 (if someone feels generous?) above and hand drawn and signed doodle about something in game.
That type stuff seems usual.
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This will surely slow down the development of the "flagship", no?
We aim to have it the other way around. Personally, I'd love to quit my main work to be a full-time indie game developer, so that in the future I would have more coding time to help Sami with UnReal World development. After considering various different ways of taking this leap the chosen tactics is a crowdfunding campaign for a small side-game project.
For so many years I have had trouble with finding proper coding time next to my main work. The time has come to ditch my other odd jobs. I do believe that taking this leap will eventually lead to boostin UnReal World development, instead of slowing it down.
EDIT: to clarify; the mentioned side-project is not intended to be a long-term development like UnReal World is. The plan is to spend a few months coding a release version (1.0), then slow down for a few more additional versions (like 1.1 or 1.2), eventually leaving the side-project as it is, so that there will be more time to concentrate on UnReal World development. So, this another game is just a temporary transition phase.
And, as mentioned: an another game could also double as a test environment to develop and to polish algorithms before implementing them in UnReal World. For example, back in the time when I was coding the weather simulation for UrW, I first coded a tiny text-based test environment. I ran hundreds of tests in the sandbox environment so that I got the details of the simulation polished, before the whole thing was implemented in the main game. Now I'm planning a full stand-alone small game, partially for the same reason - to have a sandbox where I can experiment with various algorithms. But this is purely to coder point of view - for the player that mentioned small game would naturally be a fully playable and fully enjoyable game in itself.
Only you, knows what's best for you. And whatever you decide we can do nothing, best of luck with it.
As a customer of UnReal World, I'd much much rather have more updates on that and/or even crowdfound specific features. I don't wanna grap another game to fullfill my UnReal World "needs" and is a little concerned about the state that game could/will be left in (I haven't been here for 28 years, just 2). It does seems counter productive, from a customer's point of view. And I my opinion, there's lots of small stuff to work with in UnReal World already.
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Sounds great. Another project can be just the thing to get creatively active.
My favorite type of reward are things that we backers can add to the finished game. I supported Prison Architect slightly higher to be able to submit a custom prisoner that was included in the game's release. This can be easier or harder depending on the game design but worth considering. They clearly had done a lot of work to make it simple for many people to add something small but significant without manual work for each additional additional backer.
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As a customer of UnReal World, I'd much much rather have more updates on that and/or even crowdfound specific features. I don't wanna grap another game to fullfill my UnReal World "needs" and is a little concerned about the state that game could/will be left in (I haven't been here for 28 years, just 2). It does seems counter productive, from a customer's point of view
I understand and appreciate that point of view. So, it remains to be seen if most of the UnReal World players feel that way - if the another game project won't get backers, then clearly that will mean that I won't be wasting my time coding a game no-one wants to play =) If that happens, then we need to change plans, no problem.
A full size A-title games sell for about €60. So that should be a “gold standard” to aim for.
Ah, sure! But here I've been crafting plans for a small indie game which could realistically see the first full version released after 3 months of coding or so. I feel that a game like this would sell for half the price of UnReal World, which would make the price tag of 6 €.
That means that either we need to sell a lot of "early access" perks for a cheap price, or then we need to come up with interesting perks in the €10 - €250 range, with emphasiz on stuff at €20 - €50 range.
This has been my line of thinking, wondering what extra people would like to have if they'd decide to support a 6 € game by donating 25 € or so. (Or, to rephrase myself: what perks would people like to have, if they donate to help Erkka become a full-time indie coder, ultimately boosting the UnReal World development, and also getting a nice small game as a side-effect.)
(Yeah I talk about ditching my main work, and I'm already living on minimal budget. Something like 2000 € would be a good sum to keep me coding almost full-time for two or three months. I'm self employed, so luckily it is not a total yes/no decision of quitting my current work. It is just that I'd love to have indie coding as my main work, leaving only a few hours a week of my current work on the side.)
I supported Prison Architect slightly higher to be able to submit a custom prisoner that was included in the game's release.
That's a good idea, I'll think if and how that would fit with the planned project. Just for clarification: in what form did you submit your custom prisoner? You mean pixel art, or a xml-structured text file describing character details, or something other?
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I'm staying away from supporting games at the concept stage, as I've seen too many either just fold, or change key features such that I'm not interested anymore to support something that is just a concept (the one I did turned out well, however). I believe Erkka is considerably more trustworthy than many others, but I'll stay away on principle.
One trap I think many developers fall into is to offer rewards that actually cost more in time/money than what the backer provided. That's OK if it's a deliberate marketing move to raise awareness and increase interest, but not if the money is intended to actually be used for development. Thus, a 10 euro submission mustn't cost more than 10 minutes or so in total processing if it's to mainly contribute to development (with "mainly" being very considerably above 50%, so no fantasy salaries implied).
In the prison case, if you'd have to generate 1000 prisoners anyway, getting their specifics from backers probably costs very little, so most of the money could go to development (although you'd still have to specify submission formats and handle the responses). A quickly produced "special feature" (a badge of honor for the main character?) that can be "mass produced" easily without getting bogged down in key protection issues (a simple key code will be posted on the net within minutes) might be cheap, but any additions to a 3 month project is significant...
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in what form did you submit your custom prisoner?
They had a selection of head and body sprites you could choose and then you could submit an optional text backstory as well as a name for your prisoner. In the game, when a prisoner arrives, the game would choose from a large list. The choice would be added to a machine generated personality and criminal sentence.
I really like this reward, it's easily my favorite reward out of all the indie games I've supported. Even though it's a small thing with no real effect on game play. There is an option menu where you can search through all of the submitted prisoners and flag one "this is me" so the game would always select that prisoner when you are playing.
Compare and contrast that reward to the crayon drawing reward that the Dwarf Fortress creators used to send to each backer. In that case, each donation would create a new task for the developers and the output of that task is nothing that adds to the game.
I would likely back your project just because I've had so much fun playing UnReal World and I'd like to see what else you come up with.
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I don't really know how crowdfunding should be managed, so probably cannot give a good advice. Yet I would gladly donate as soon as I'm able to. Just because of being grateful of all the fun I have playing UnReal World. And 'cause I hope to become an indie game developer some day.
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I have faith in the Enormous Elk team, no matter what. For the paltry sum of a lifetime membership many years ago, I have been rewarded with countless hours of entertainment. I know whatever project they begin, Sami and Erkka will approach it with the same care and dedication that they put into UnReal World. Therefore I will be happy to support any new venture.
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And here is a blog post (http://www.enormouselk.com/?q=erkkasblog/random-pre-indiegogo-thoughts) which focuses mainly on my personal thoughts and feelings on preparing for the side-project. It also contains a little on the actual game idea.
I feel that once the campaign starts the focus of feedback and communications is most likely going to be in the actual game and coding-related stuff. So, before that phase I felt like writing a more personal post, going through the psychological stuff which anyway affects everything we human beings do or don't do. Hence this blog post.
And thank you for all the feedback and ideas for Indiegogo Perks. I think I have found a way to fit MrMotorhead's suggestion neatly into the planned project. But more of that kind of stuff once the Indiegogo campaign is ready to launch. In the meantime, feel free to post further suggestions, to send negative or positive feedback the way you find it.
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Two comments on the blog post:
1. Fairly trivial (and certainly no level of professionalism behind it), but you're not saying "No" to all the other projects, but rather "I'll start with this one", it's not as if you were hunting and had to chose one out of two animals and the one you does not select will bolt.
However, once you go for one you definitely have to lock the others out most of the time until done (depending on how you, personally, function, it may or may not be "safe" to think about others as a distraction when you need a break, but it depends on if you can lock them out again when "done" [for that time]).
2. "Slash and Burn" is a good title, but it has to be made very clear immediately that it's NOT about crushing your foes, as that's the meaning that's used most of the time.
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Good comments, PALU, thank you!
You are right about the point 1. Maybe I should've been more clear with my writing. I think that by "saying no" I actually mean "not now", instead of "no, never".
2. is something I didn't know! This one needs to be considered carefully, as indeed the intention is to make a peaceful game with no simulation of warfare.
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@Erkka, your blog post is pretty inspiring. I do know what depression is, and it's so helpful to see someone actually overcome it.
Your game seems to be quite interesting (and have the spirit of UrW, that's cool). The description somewhat reminded me “King of Dragon Pass”, another great game. I hope you'll succeed!
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Hear ye, hear ye all of you naysaying nonbelievers and the rest of the fair unreal world wanderers. When a man who steadily delivered rock solid content for good 20 years tells you he'll do good on his promises and will deliver again - you listen. The right thing to do would be to say "Great stuff, more content from one of the most reliable devs in the gaming world, how can we help?" Anything else is blaspheming nonsense. And what do we do with blasphemers in the iron age? Anyone?
Come on guys, its Erkka we are talking about. Not just some kid who learned to code "hello world" and thinks himself a game developer who can start a crowdfunding campaign to make animated kittens. Its in our best interest to not only support this endeavor personally, but to spread the word. I mean did anyone hear of someone even remotely as dedicated as Erkka or Sami? In the whole bloody gaming world I can think of only two names - Tarn and Zach Adams. Thats it. So spread the word and give them your money. Or give them your money and then spread the word. That part is up you ;)
P.S. I am sure we'll hear no more of this naysaying, but I'll go prepare a few stakes and gather some firewood. You know, just in case :P
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... as for dark ages Finnish blasphemers... do absolutely nothing... spirits would correct their ways, there’d be no reason for folks to intervene.
If you’ve done “bird thief quest” you’ll know the attitude going against someone else: they might even put a spell on you. Better to keep to yourself.
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Bah... Shows what you know. Stakes and firewood are essential parts of very potent purification ritual I've heard about. Does wonders and quite literally eradicates all negative energy. Its the good stuff I tell ya, tried and tested through and through.
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Stakes not so much but sizable piece of firewood could be carved into seita. More common would be to carve a tall stump instead.
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Anyway, thats all fun, but here is the real kicker - how can we, as the community, support this endeavor? I mean, sure, support the campaign financially, but what else? I have not been involved much with other gaming communities except one, so I am a bit at the loss here. Where do folks hang out and talk about these things nowadays? I am sure we can give the jumpstart to Erkka's project it needs to succeed. So lets hear it.
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Hello! Just a quick note for those who might have been waiting for further news;
After carefully considering all the feedback I decided to postpone the crowdfunding campaign launch until January / February 2021, depending on how the development goes.
So: Thanks for all the feedback and help. I'll be back with more news later on.
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Personally, I support projects when they reach a point that I would be happy playing with as is. I've been "burned" too many times in the past, and even from good developers, I am now always skeptical. It's nothing personal.
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I wish you the best for the project, I really love the work of you two.
Also, have you considered doing crowdfunding or something similar for supporting extra content for UrW? (besides the donations).
Good luck! ;D
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have you considered doing crowdfunding or something similar for supporting extra content for UrW?
This is not an alien idea for us :) And I think something like that is the likely next step.
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My take, for what it's worth, as someone who doesn't know you:
I'd have taken that job in a heartbeat. Income, responsibility, self-respect, possibly meeting the future mother of your children ... That's what most men need.
Therapy doesn't cure depression. It makes it worse because you spend hours dwelling on your problems ad infinitum. This hypno-gal seems like she might be exploiting your loneliness and her going rate seems awfully high for someone who is having trouble paying the bills.
If you're not obsessed with a game concept that you MUST bring to fruition, you probably shouldn't. The process shouldn't be: My dream is to be an indie game developer, now what game should I develop? The process should be: This game that doesn't exist yet is the most amazing idea I've ever had and I cannot rest until I bring it into reality.
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Therapy doesn't cure depression. It makes it worse because you spend hours dwelling on your problems ad infinitum. This hypno-gal seems like she might be exploiting your loneliness and her going rate seems awfully high for someone who is having trouble paying the bills.
I'm just going to point out that this sounds like very dangerous advice. Not seeking help for mental health issues can result in a horrible downward spiral of debilitation and self harm. While it's true that you should vet professionals for their credentials and ensure their cost don't run you into debt, not getting help is a very bad option to take. He states that he's been through some traumatic events in his life, and it has left him feeling dissociated from himself. That's serious, and he's right not to ignore it.
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My take, for what it's worth, as someone who doesn't know you:
Thanks for the feedback!
I'd have taken that job in a heartbeat. Income, responsibility, self-respect, possibly meeting the future mother of your children ... That's what most men need.
Sure, I do understand that point of view. But my personal situation happens to be a little bit different;
I already do have an income, responsibility and self-respect. For years I've been self-employed. This year I've sustained myself doing massage, coding custom office solutions, and doing basic lumberjack and house renovation work for my neighbours. But this autumn I've seen decrease in those job opportunities, so my question is if I'd like to seek more odd jobs, or to apply for a full-time job, or if I should pursue my own creative ideas with indie game development. Personally, my self-respect isn't tied to the amount of money I earn, but there is a connection, still. I feel that pursuing my own project plans also makes me feel more fulfilled. Applying for a full-time job would've felt a bit like "Oh, I need to work for others for my own plans are probably just going to fail." So, from the self-respect point of view I'm all willing to keep on being a starving artist :)
My son is already 27 years old. Sure, those were great times in my life when my son was smaller. But now I have a 'been-there-done-that' feeling, having absolutely no intention to having more kids. Instead, I enjoy this mid-life freedom.
Therapy doesn't cure depression. It makes it worse because you spend hours dwelling on your problems ad infinitum.
Where does that come from? Is it your personal experience? If so, feel free to send me a personal message if you wish to discuss in private.
I have more than 20 years of experience with different methods of therapy. Yes, there are those kinds which aren't always that helpful. But I've been lucky to find the professionals I like to work with, so that the therapeutic process has been focused on the solutions, instead of dwelling on the problems. I know it might be deeply frustrating if ones first experiences with therapy are not good. But I encourage people to keep on seeking. For finding a good therapist can be of great help.
This hypno-gal seems like she might be exploiting your loneliness and her going rate seems awfully high for someone who is having trouble paying the bills.
I do understand that kind of concern. But don't worry; that hypno-gal is my personal friend. She knows my situation and offered to work with me for free. I don't have therapy bills to pay. But I was struggling with winter tyres for the car, and with replacing the water pump in my dwell.
(Also, in the beginning you said you don't know me. And then you assume I might be suffering from loneliness. I have no idea where does that come from, did I write so? Or is it just an assumption you are making based on what?)
If you're not obsessed with a game concept that you MUST bring to fruition, you probably shouldn't. The process shouldn't be: My dream is to be an indie game developer, now what game should I develop? The process should be: This game that doesn't exist yet is the most amazing idea I've ever had and I cannot rest until I bring it into reality.
The story with not applying for a full-time job was supposed to illustrate that idea. That my desire with indie game development has reached such an level that I'm willing to starving artist to make my projects become true. And, in my case it is not about having the most amazing idea ever - the question has been that I have half a dozen of ideas I like, and then because of my depression-like symptoms I've had trouble picking just an one idea to persistently focus on. Now, with the great help of therapy, friends and other therapeutic processes I finally enjoy a sense of inner clarity and focus. I have chosen one idea to focus on. Sure, it remains to be seen if anyone else will like my idea :) So, I'll keep on doing the starving artist thing until I have enough of a demo to probe the possible audience reception.
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I'm a traditionalist. I believe that men need a purpose and that purpose for millennia has been to provide for one's wife and children and to defend one's tribe/nation, while trying to set a good example for the next generation and practicing the religious faith of one's people.
I'm guessing you can't relate to that, and that's fine. If what you're doing is working for you, then by all means keep doing it.
"Therapy doesn't cure depression."
"Where does that come from? ... I have more than 20 years of experience with different methods of therapy."
Asked and answered.
I'm glad to hear your friend is helping you for free. (Though out of respect for her ability to attract paying customers, you might not want to share that info around too much.) If my contribution here has been nothing more than to allay potential concerns that any donations to this campaign might end up lining the pockets of an e-girl, it has been worthwhile. As for why I assumed you were lonely, it's because you complained of depression, and most single men in their 40's who barely make ends meet aren't getting much female companionship. If you're the exception, kudos to you.
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Yes, I think it is understandable and acceptable that different people might have different reasons for not placing any money in a crowdfunding campaign. Over the years urw followers have been suggesting us "Hey guys, you should try indiegogo, it would be good for you!" or "Hey Enormous Elk, are you familiar with Patreon? Try that, it would be good for you!". And now I felt that with my project plans Indiegogo might indeed be worth trying. The good thing is that those who are sceptical don't need to donate - it is perfectly okay just to wait for the finished product and then see if a new game seems like worth buying. So, in that sense I'm all fine with different people having their own reasons of being sceptical.
And naturally, it might be that a crowdfunding campaign won't be that successful. But for that there is always a plan B, no problem.
The other stuff is going more off-topic, but I think at this point we can allow the thread to de-rail a bit. For the actual project news will be posted in a separate thread sometime in the beginning of 2021.
that purpose for millennia has been to provide for one's wife and children and to defend one's tribe/nation, while trying to set a good example for the next generation and practicing the religious faith of one's people.
I'm guessing you can't relate to that, and that's fine.
I must admit that this, again, leaves me somewhat confused. It would be interesting to hear what makes you guess that I can't relate to the traditional virtues you listed?
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I must admit that this, again, leaves me somewhat confused. It would be interesting to hear what makes you guess that I can't relate to the traditional virtues you listed?
I would guess that for any number of reasons but maybe the main 2 are:
1) You live in a nation that has been heavily indoctrinated with anti-traditional, globalist values and so as a subset of that population, it's reasonable to guess that you have been successfully indoctrinated as well. (If I reach into a jar of jelly beans, 90% of which are black and 10% of which are red, and pulled out a jelly bean at random, I would guess that I held a black jelly bean. Of course my guess would not always be correct.)
2) You would be making different choices if your values were similar to mine.
But I hope that the point of those 2 short paragraphs was clear: I think a purpose-driven life, in alignment with the purpose our forefathers had, might be a solution for someone who struggles with depression in spite of having undergone 20+ years of therapy but that if you have found a different solution that is working, then that's wonderful news and I would encourage you to keep doing whatever that is. And if I have misread the situation and am wrong, and your values are similar to mine, then I'm absolutely delighted to be wrong about that.
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2) You would be making different choices if your values were similar to mine
And what are those different choices? You mean that for a purpose driven traditionalist life I shouldn't be pursuing my own business ideas, but instead I should apply for a full-time work at a company run by other people?
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Under ordinary circumstances, I would never try to micro-manage (as opposed to offering a big picture/broad strokes perspective, which was my intent with my initial brief post) somebody else's life (especially not a stranger's,) but you're asking, so here's my answer:
I suppose the job opportunity is as good an example as any ...
If you had said "I didn't take the job because their anti-traditional corporate values were incompatible with mine" then I could see myself making the same choice. But that doesn't seem to have entered into it at all.
I might have said something like:
I will take this job because my skillset matches perfectly with the required skillset. I'll earn a healthy income and be able to save up some money. If I work at this job for 3 years, a number of good things might reasonably be expected to happen with any luck:
My skills as a programmer might improve.
With my higher social status, I might attract a delightful mate who I will happily grow old with.
My time management, self-discipline and project management skills might improve.
I might develop valuable professional relationships which will increase the likelihood of success should I pursue my dream of developing a video game after my stint with the company ends.
I will be setting a good example for my son and fulfilling my traditional role as a provider, increasing my sense of well-being in the process.
Or, if I pursue this opportunity for 3 months and I'm miserable, or things just aren't working out, I can always quit.
Now, what I hear you implying (correct me if I'm wrong about that) is that working for other people is incompatible with the 'traditionalist life.' If that's true, I couldn't disagree more.
Tribes are groups of people working together towards a common goal. Not everyone is the chief. And not every chief starts out as a chief. This Atlas Shrugged notion that every man is an island and must be an individualist is very ANTI-traditional.
Now, is it possible that in your mid-40's (guessing?) you will spontaneously will yourself into creating a great video game by yourself, when you're struggling to pay the bills? I suppose it's possible. And I sincerely hope it happens. But I think that desired outcome would have been far more likely if you had taken and worked at the programmer job first. I hope you prove me wrong.
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This Atlas Shrugged notion that every man is an island and must be an individualist is very ANTI-traditional.
Do you think that society as a general is still holding up to their traditional values?
I personally see single individuals more than complete societies. This is not an attempt to attack or criticise btw I am just curious about what you think because you are really standing with your opinion and seem to "got it" at life. At least that's what I'm thinking.
Did you really find a decent amount of people that hold similar or the same values as you? Are you really able to live with your values with a society or rather just singled out in a society that is different from your values?
I think this is one of the biggest reasons for traditional persons to be individualists. Most people nowadays think that the "Simple is better" is just there to keep people where they are. And people who actually think that way are singled out. Therefore, almost "forced" to be individualists. Of course there are exceptions but that's what I think at least, just wanted to put it out there.
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Hi trowftd. I appreciate your questions, but it was never my intent to derail this thread and I've only been replying because OP has been asking me questions. I will reply privately.
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OK. Thanks for all the clarifications.
At this point I only have one more question to jonottawa:
Earlier you made a public statement that you are guessing Erkka is very likely a person who is wasting his money on e-girls.
Now I'd like to hear in which ways do you think that making such a public statement is a decent thing to do, setting a good example for others and for the next generation?
(Honestly, I had to google what "e-girl" means, for I was not even aware that such an phenomenon exists. The idea of spending money in such stuff has never crossed my mind. So, seen from my personal point of view I find your remark somewhat derogatory, and I'm having hard time trying to understand why it would be a respectful choice to publicly spread such wild guesses. I don't know but this might be partially just a difference in the way we speak. Maybe your intention was just to ask if your assumption really is true, and you asked that question by expressing your guesses, awaiting for me to correct you if you are wrong.)
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You were quoting me before. And now you accuse me of something that is a significant distortion of what I said and fail to quote me. Is that a coincidence?
Let's try an honest summary instead:
In this thread you linked a recent blogpost from your blog. So I read it. In your blog you are very open about certain aspects of your personal life. Far more open than most people are. So I felt free to weigh in.
You mentioned that you have been unable to pay your bills (or at least that your monthly income is well below your monthly bills) and also that you are seeing a new-age therapist and you linked her website, where her rate of $100-$125 per session is listed.
To me, that was a red flag, since many of these people are charlatans who prey on lonely and vulnerable people so I diplomatically expressed my altogether reasonable concern which I thought might be shared by others who had read the blog post:
"This hypno-gal seems like she might be exploiting your loneliness and her going rate seems awfully high for someone who is having trouble paying the bills."
To which you replied:
"I do understand that kind of concern. But don't worry; that hypno-gal is my personal friend. She knows my situation and offered to work with me for free. I don't have therapy bills to pay. But I was struggling with winter tyres for the car, and with replacing the water pump in my well." [emphasis mine]
So at that point, in your own words, my concern was understandable. I made the not-unreasonable assumption that you were paying the professional new age therapist who was providing you with professional new age therapy services. You clarified that she is a friend who is offering her services to you for free.
I then felt relief that my concerns, though understandable, were based on a faulty assumption (that you were paying for these services) and expressed my happiness that I was able to clear up that potential concern for others.
"If my contribution here has been nothing more than to allay potential concerns that any donations to this campaign might end up lining the pockets of an e-girl, it has been worthwhile."
Anyway, clearly this is going nowhere. You seem determined to take offense rather than to reflect on well-intended constructive advice. I'll leave you with this hours-old video from John Doyle, who touches on many of the themes I raised and who does so far more eloquently and persuasively than I ever could. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCdvobrAj2w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCdvobrAj2w)
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You seem determined to take offense rather than to reflect on well-intended constructive advice.
OK, I see that you are making that kind of interpretation. Again, from my own point of view I don't feel offended. I just wanted to ask for further clarification, and you explained your point of view and we are all good now.
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Hey, Erkka :D I just had this random thought considering a personal situation: My national bank account doesn't allow me to make international payments (like pay-pal), but with some exceptions (I can do transactions in Steam). So, maybe an idea for Enormous Elk crowfounding can be releasing some art dlc in the UrW steam page; like some games that releases artbooks and stuff. Well, it's just a crazy idea considering my own national-bank limitations :P, but considering that Enormous Elk do some UrW artistic videos and related stuff it can be an option to support more donations.
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maybe an idea for Enourmous Elk crowfounding can be releasing some art dlc in the UrW steam page
Hehe, just a few days ago we were discussing this idea with Sami. It got added to our plans for 2021.
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Cough, PAT cough, RE ONhh... Sorry guys, feeling a bit under the weather today, how's everyone doin'? :)
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feeling a bit under the weather today, how's everyone doin'?
Here in Finland it has been snowing, but the temperature isn't below freezing. At 9pm I came back home after a few hours of work. I was delighted to find my house warm, but I felt that it would be even nicer if I had a old-fashioned fireplace. I have been planning to construct one, hopefully some year in the near future if I have enough money to buy the materials, and enough time to do the masonry.
But then I started to think about this. When I bought this house, 12 years ago, it was sold with a remark "in unlivable condition". So, during the first summer I installed a water pipe so that I have running water in the kitchen tap. I fixed a leaky spot in the roof. I added a lot of heat insulation to the attic. I checked that the chimney was safe to use. And after that, year by year I have slowly been renovating the house. Mostly by myself, learning by doing. Half of the floor in the bedroom was rotten, I tore apart the whole floor and rebuilt it from a scratch. I have been replacing rotten logs in the walls. I have completely rebuilt the entrance hall. I have been removing old badly damaged wall siding, and replacing it with new materials. For outer paint I used traditional red paint which I made myself from the ingredients. All that kind of stuff. But yet, I must say that after 12+ years of renovating there are still things in need of improvement.
Maybe I have been all wrong all the time? Maybe I'm under some illusion or false belief? Maybe the real truth is that renovation doesn't cure the unlivability of a house? I'm starting to get alarmed, what should I do? :P
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There is no such thing as "unlivable". OK, maybe there are some exceptions, but usually it means "the place needs lots of work". Otherwise the place would be deemed unsafe and probably be demolished by the municipality. When my parents bought their house it was in a VERY sorry condition - a man who lived there was known in the neighborhood for ah.. overindulging with different brews and didnt care one hoot about the place he lived in. So yeah.. It took a while, but now their house, the garden and a small cherry orchard is their shining pride. Oh and they were able to buy it much cheaper than any other property in the area. Same goes for my condo - I had to renovate almost everything, even the ceiling needed some work. But now I know EXACTLY whats what and I take pride in the fact that most of this was done with my own hands. One word of advice though - find a structural engineer and have him do a throughout inspection of the place. That way you'll know what needs to be done and in what order. You'll be able to plan your work/budget years ahead and sleep calmly knowing that you know your house aches and worries. It may cost a bit, but its worth it. If you dont know anyone directly, you can ask someone who lives in a largish apartment buildings, they can ask the management company to suggest an engineering firm who deals with these things, otherwise a real estate agent may know someone.
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Couple scenarios that are in livable: Rotten frame. Thorough black mold. Structural fire damage.
But leak here another there and surface repairs needed, won’t make a place uninhabitable.
I’m certain that every property on the planet could do with repair or improvement, how ever minor.
Whole thing with some grass greener and some fences et cetera.
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I am speaking kinda from experience. Even though I am not a structural engineer, I serve on a board of directors of my condo for last 7 years, so I deal with them on somewhat regular basis. Trust me - if the place would be unlivable, you wouldnt be able to sell it as a residential unit. I realize that every country have different regulations and in some parts of the world "livable" means different things, but still... As far as I know, Finland is very civilized place and I just cant imagine a real estate agent selling property marked as residential that is completely unfit to live in or outright dangerous. If that would've been a case and something bad would've happened to a buyer, well.... Lets just say that the agent and everyone he/she professionally associated with (issued licenses, did the pre-sell inspection, insured, etc ) would be outta work and possibly behind bars. So yeah, it cant be all THAT bad, but if the place is quite run down, a proper inspection from a professional engineer to see whats what and outline any potential structural damages would be a very good idea - they can see small things that, if repaired in time, prevent major renovations down the road.
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Good morning, everyone, and thanks for your valuable comments!
Hey, Dark Ark - very good that you mention the legal aspect. That is essential, and I forgot to clarify that. So, here is a bit more of the background details:
This house was not listed for sale. I just saw the place had been sitting uninhabited for years, so I contacted the owners directly and asked if they are willing to sell the place. At first they were hesitant, but to my great delight they agreed. And, sure, in Finland we have legislation regulating this kind of things, and there are consequences for those who attempt to sell and overpriced house by telling faulty or dishonest stuff about the real condition of that house. So, pretty much because of that the people who sold the house suggested a deal: Basically, I paid only for this plot of land, and got the buildings for free - in whatever condition they happen to be. Therefore the legal document includes that remark "in unlivable condition", for it gives a good night's sleep for the sellers. That way I can't sue them for telling lies. Absolutely not a problem for me, at that time I was willing to take the risk. Despite being severely depressed around those times I somehow had this inner faith that "I can manage, things will work out."
And it has definitely been worth it. Also, in different phases of the renovation project I have used the services of experienced professionals to evaluate the critical parts. And based on that I have made my project plans, and so far everything has been good - the place turned out to be in a better condition than the previous owners thought, so I kind of a won in this deal, getting a nice place for myself for a rather low price.
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Then, an another thing is my sometimes-a-little-bit-tricky-sense-of-humour, characteristic of The Savonian people which I identify myself with. Earlier in this thread I was told that "depression is not cured by therapy, and one way to back that claim is to point out that after 20+ years of therapy Erkka still has some minor mental health issues to work with." Reading that kind of assumptions made me think that such a claim is about as plausible as stating "renovation doesn't help, if after 12+ years you still have some minor improvements waiting to be done". But at that point I just rolled my eyes and ignored the stuff. But then, on the other hand - speaking openly about mental health issues, and about how to recover from then has been one of the purposes of my blog. During the years of writing the blog I've had some personal feedback from readers who have found it valuable and helpful how I share my experience. So that has given me a more deeper sense of purpose with writing the blog. Because of this kind of reasons I wanted to return to this theme, just using a little bit of humour.
Using the same analogue: 12 years ago I still had some suicidal feelings every now and then. Sometimes I got panic attacks triggered by small mundane events. Sometimes I had to sit completely still staring into the void, waiting for my mind to calm down for I knew eventually it would do so. Most of the time I felt that my brain is full of fog or mist. And I went to therapy to learn more about why those things happen, and what can be done with them. I had already learnt that those stuff are not because of my actual situation in life, but more like flash-backs and post-reactions to a row of severely traumatic events I had to go through earlier in my life. To survive those traumatic events a human psyche often uses different kinds of coping methods, and for me some events - like facing several situations of nearly-lethal violence when I was still just a vulnerable kid - left me with a tendency to dissociate away from the situation. With therapy I learnt that part of my mind is still stuck with the dissociation, making me feel foggy inside. And that there are methods to work with that, to reverse the dissociation. To dissolve the internal panic so that panic attacks won't happen any more. After a long slow process with the therapy I find myself in a rather good condition. No more suicidal thoughts, no more panic attacks, no more heavy depressed days. 12 years ago there were days when I had trouble getting up from the bed, for right in the morning I felt that my life is miserable and I don't want to face this world. Nowadays I enjoy my life with a deep sense of purpose and meaning. But there is still some of that dissociation fog left, and I need to keep on working with that. Luckily, I have found professional therapists who master some good methods to address that kind of issues.
Hehe, and while I have been slowly dragging myself through those heavier years of depression, on the side I've still managed to contribute pieces of help in The UnReal World coding project. I remember there were weeks when I felt persistent emotional pain all the time. To cope with that I coded projectile trajectory algorithms for Sami to track arrow flight in the game. Or the weather simulation. And the random map generator. All that kind of pieces of code have been written while suffering from more or less severe mental health issues. And participating in the game project, seeing the audience enjoy the game, it has also been a valuable part in my own recovery project.
So, here we are now. I feel that the therapeutic processes have worked wonders - even though there still are some minor issues requiring further work, I deeply feel that my depression has been cured, and nowadays in my blog I often write about the chronic depression in past tense - something which I had earlier, but it is not there any more. What remains is something more like a mild but persistent post-depression state. So, from my point of view this is just an example that even if some mental recovery processes might take some time, it clearly is so that therapy can help cure depression. Just like renovation can help cure 'unlivability' of a house.
Oh well - enough of my personal stories :D My point is: I see both my mental health and my long-term house renovation project being in such a good shape that I have more focus and energy for further Enormous Elk coding projects. And that I wanted to mention this, because I'm perfectly well aware that many of our long-term followers might remember some of my earlier phases, when I've been able to code small focused pieces for Sami, but I wasn't in a good enough shape to consistently manage a bigger project. Things have been becoming a lot better, and I find new joy in our indie coding projects. And, naturally, it remains to be seen what comes out of this. I have hope and I have plans and I have a lot of development-phase code. Week by week that code grows into something more, so eventually it will be enough for a playable demo. Work in progress :)
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Thanks for sharing this Erkka. Being able to face your inner demons is not easy. Its even harder to deal with them in any meaningful way. Oh and I never really understood people who claimed that dealing with mental issues is waste of time. Mind is just another organ. When your leg is badly damaged and you want it back to relatively normal condition - you go see the specialist. When you got head issues - you go see the specialist. If you want it back to relatively normal condition that it. It just makes sense. Without going much into the details, I can say that I somewhat know what you are talking about it. I didnt have to go to the doctors (or rather chose not to), but yeah... I know what you mean. Luckily for me, as a youth I was a very voracious reader devouring anything I could've gotten my little greedy hands on. I am very sure that some of the books I've read kept me sane and productive during my darker moments. Right now I live (or rather try to) by few very simple rules - I need to know how to wait, think and fast (abstain from overeating). My enemies (life challenges really, but in the original text these things were called "enemies") are fear, clarity, power and old age. My most trusted advisor is my own death (or rather inevitable mortality). And its always good to remember that hell is other people (no, its not related to misanthropy). I know its a strange bag of Hesse mixed Sartre and seasoned with Castaneda of all things, but hey, it works for me :). If you'll have some free time and will want some food for thought - let me know, I'll give you some interesting and possibly useful titles.
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Hey guys, looks like this rather important thread got flooded with interesting, but rather unrelated stuff. IMHO, it might be a good idea to separate the unrelated stuff from the main discussion and move it to "Off topic" section. Just a thought, its your call of course.
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Maybe. My own opinion has been to leave the thread as it is - anyway this was mostly about me asking for different opinions and feelings and thoughts about a possible Enormous Elk crowdfunding campaign. And I got feedback from different points of view, no problem with that. (Also, it was pretty much me myself, who decided to mention also my personal background like currently being low on money because of my other job opportunities being on decline, so if I get feedback also related to that, then it kind of a is partially because of my decision to have this broader perspective, instead of just talking strictly project stuff as project stuff.)
Also, we are anyway approaching the turn of the year, and I'm busy working with the project mentioned so that I'd have some more news in early January. Once we hit that, I'll start a new thread with new news. I mean, I anyway see this thread approaching the very end of its lifecycle, so I won't bother that much with splitting the topic.
(ps. Dark Art: thanks for your good comments. I didn't reply for I was immersed in coding. We can maybe continue our discussion in e-mail, I'd guess)
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Oh please... There is really no need for any apologies. I just hope you making some headway with coding - I am really looking forward seeing what will you end up with eventually. With the way things are going, we'll need a good, fun diversion. At times like these I kinda wish my coding skills were greater than relatively simple SQL and good ol' bash scripts :)
Sure, we can do email.
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I am afraid I am late to the game but may I put my squirrel hide in?
I have supported URW for many years. I have purchase a lifetime membership way back on a dead username which I don't use as I like to think that person I was when I made it, is dead too. I have donated money when I can to it, I have bought it on Steam. I tell my friends about it, I recommend it, I have bought extra copies and gift it to people.
This game has followed me from preteen to now, I am almost 30. I played this game for so long, it has been with me on bad days and good and I have Erkka and Sami to thank for years of support and escape.
If Erkka is asking the same of me, for support and escape, I will happily donate. Because he deserves my loyalty and support as one of the few game creators that constantly gives.
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Not late at all. Thank You for your comment!
Lately I've been immersed into the coding itself, postponing the funding-related decisions. I have a feeling that the most likely backers are a handful of long-term UrW followers, which sounds about right for me. So in my mind there are alternatives to a full-blown indiegogo campaign. Another way would be to host a small campaign on Enormous Elk webpages, offering the loyal fans an opportunity to back this project, and to get involved in the early development-phase communications and testing. Then, if needed, at later phase of the development we could try indiegogo campaign for a wider audience, if additional funding is needed. But these decisions depend on how my development goes this week and week 1 of the 2021. I'll make my decisions at the weekend 8. - 10. of January 2021.
And for those interested in a little more details, there is a fresh blog post (http://www.enormouselk.com/?q=erkkasblog/adventures-3d-programming).
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Erkka, regardless of your decision, may I please donate at least a cup of coffee your way anyways? I have read about your recent issues and in the spirit of the season, I wish to try to help a bit.
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How much is a cup of coffee at your hoods?
Maybe it wouldn't hurt to set up the simple basics during this week. Like, "donate X amount of moneys, and get an access to the project Discord server, where you can read the weekly project updates". This without any big indiegogo campaign, just a small campaign page for UrW players who wish to back our further adventures in Nordic indie game-making. And then more layers added later on, based on how the project goes. (Read: depending on how lucky I'm with my current starving artits techniques. Also, I'd love to have a little extra money to pay for a graphics designer. But that is probably a later stage, for first I need to make some other design decisions which I haven't settled yet.)
EDIT: Or, maybe we don't need to determine the exact value of that X. I'll take a look what we can do with PayPal, I'd guess it will allow some flexibility for people to donate based on their personal situation. In this first funding stage the sums wont' matter that much - it would be nice and inspiring just to gather a small bunch of early backers, who would be the first ones to get their hands of the development version, as soon as I have a minimum playable build to share.
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Whatever suits you best. I am very interested in the game concept. The struggle of action or inaction when lives depend on you is a brilliant concept.
Please let me know when it is set up.
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Comes out from the shadow with face covered with a bandana, spray-paints in large, fluorescent, bright red letters "PATREON, JUST DO IT ALREADY" and runs away
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Patreon sounds so very good and we'd like to do that when time is ripe.
But, the way I see it, Patreon is something long-running and stable. I feel that when launching Patreon one already needs to have a pretty solid idea what it is going to be, for years to come.
Patreon for Enormous Elk, to back anything Enormous Elk does? Or Patreon for Erkka Lehmus, to back what Erkka Lehmus does although most of that is related to Enormous Elk stuff? And / or a separate Patreon for Sami as a person? What kind of extra content for patrons? Who will provide that extra content and when and how? I must admit that after some serious thought work my own ideas aren't fully clear and settled when it comes to that kind of questions. There are many possibilities, with many pros and cons.
And that is why I feel that at the moment it suits us better to do a campaign. Something which has a clearly defined start and end, so that it is easier to make plans for that campaign period only. After that experience it will hopefully be easier to craft solid long-term plans for a Patreon profile.
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Friend, you are overthinking it. There are plenty of Patreon accounts that are set up for just one project and even then, half the time the project is far from being either completed or even fully planned out. Moreover, there are creators that use it for direct support without actually having a defined product - bloggers, journalists, book writers etc. In my very humble opinion, you are more that ripe for it.
In terms of Sami vs Erkka vs Enormous Elk - this is something you guys need to sit down and discuss. Personally, I'd make two accounts: one purely for URW and another one for Enormous Elk with honorary mention of its sister in each. Those who are interested in URW alone will be happy, any other project can fall under Enormous Elk. In terms of rewards - dont worry about it. Really. Most Patreon accounts are simple blogs with dev updates visible only to active contributors. Keep in mind that folks who are willing to support the creator long-term do it consciously and, more often than not, not looking for some kind of special reward. They support the creator because they want the end product and because they think its a right thing to do. So again, do not overthink it. I'd just start off simple, post weekly or bi-weekly updates on whats going on with devving and take things from there. Patrons will tell you if there will be a need for anything else (which I doubt).
P.S. Its your call of course, but I will not get off your back till you actually make it happen. Just so you know :)
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Friend, you are overthinking it. There are plenty of Patreon accounts that are set up for just one project and even then, half the time the project is far from being either completed or even fully planned out. Moreover, there are creators that use it for direct support without actually having a defined product - bloggers, journalists, book writers etc. In my very humble opinion, you are more that ripe for it.
In terms of Sami vs Erkka vs Enormous Elk - this is something you guys need to sit down and discuss. Personally, I'd make two accounts: one purely for URW and another one for Enormous Elk with honorary mention of its sister in each. Those who are interested in URW alone will be happy, any other project can fall under Enormous Elk. In terms of rewards - dont worry about it. Really. Most Patreon accounts are simple blogs with dev updates visible only to active contributors. Keep in mind that folks who are willing to support the creator long-term do it consciously and, more often than not, not looking for some kind of special reward. They support the creator because they want the end product and because they think its a right thing to do. So again, do not overthink it. I'd just start off simple, post weekly or bi-weekly updates on whats going on with devving and take things from there. Patrons will tell you if there will be a need for anything else (which I doubt).
P.S. Its your call of course, but I will not get off your back till you actually make it happen. Just so you know :)
Agree'd. I wouldn't mind throwing some euros regularly for URW development via patreon. Didn't read through every post in the thread, but had the same idea that Patreon could definitely be worth a try. Can of course ditch it, if it doesn't work as intended? Probably less of a hassle than developing a whole new game. :)
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Thanks for all the feedback, guys !
I realize that I was too vague with my Patreon-related thoughts. So let me rephrase myself:
Yes, absolutely! Patreon for Enormous Elk is already planned, and will happen! The exact timing of launching the Patreon profile will depend on various stuff, which I won't go in detail now. But it is coming, as a way to support UnReal World development, and what ever other smaller stuff Enormous Elk does.
Friend, you are overthinking it.
Hey, thanks for the pieces of information you wrote in that post! This is something I tried to say in one of our earlier e-mails. That, since I personally don't have that much user experience with Patreon, it has been a bit hard for me to think about it. And therefore I've been reading their own official instructions and guides and recommendations, leading me to "overthink" it, having a feeling that a Patreon profile should be a shiny thing with a frequent stream of special bonus content to keep the audience engaged. But the way you describe it now sounds a lot more like something which would perfectly fit the way Enormous Elk works :D
On top of that, I might still try a small simple separate campaign for the Ancient Savo project - mostly just to gather that small bunch of early test players to provide feedback during the development phase. I see that as a more focused need, choosing the tools according to that specific need.
Didn't read through every post in the thread, but had the same idea that Patreon could definitely be worth a try. Can of course ditch it, if it doesn't work as intended? Probably less of a hassle than developing a whole new game.
Ah, absolutely no problem with not wading through the entire thread. It has been just different people expressing their different opinions, thoughts, assumptions, fears and also a lot of willingness to support - each according to their own personal point of view. But scattered here and there were few of my thoughts related to the idea of developing a whole new game. For I see it as a good way to boost UnReal World development in the long term, and to unleash some of my own creative potential which has been partially hibernating for too long, being burdened by the duties of my main work. So, the idea of making a side game next to the main title, that stems from the development chambers, so to say :)
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So if the Hack n burn, family survival game is under way... are you including trade elements with settlements, villages?
I personally wouldn’t mind “URW-ish” take on sandbox. With Rimworld/Dwarf Fortress-esque features (without fighting?)
That’d be lot bigger than couple months of coding though, and not likely just a “side-project” scale.
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That’d be lot bigger than couple months of coding though, and not likely just a “side-project” scale.
Depends on the level of detail we want to have. When I think of a side project, I think something which isn't such a deep simulation as UnReal World is.
are you including trade elements with settlements villages?
My idea is something like this: in this game you can't visit this or that individual village. (we will only simulate your homestead and the immediate surroundings, and you won't have neighbours that close).
Instead, you can choose a more generic "visit the market place"-option, and then be presented a mostly text-based dialog where you do the trading. That is one example of keeping the level of detail on such a level that the game idea is doable as a side-project.
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A comment on the blog post:
If something is done in response to a user action and the game (or "real" program for that matter) is "turn based" (i.e. things happen as a result of the player doing things, rather than running continuously) and it takes less than 50 ms or so it's basically instantaneously for the user, and so doesn't need to be optimized.
Spend the optimization time on things that are done frequently and a large number of times.
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The game reminds me of VVitch. A family outcast to survive in the woods away from others. Trying to survive and make decisions.
I ain't buying no goats.
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So if the Hack n burn, family survival game is under way... are you including trade elements with settlements, villages?
I personally wouldn’t mind “URW-ish” take on sandbox. With Rimworld/Dwarf Fortress-esque features (without fighting?)
That’d be lot bigger than couple months of coding though, and not likely just a “side-project” scale.
If we want a full blown, complex and detailed game, I guess we really ought to make sure that this "side project" makes it well into the green and proves to everyone the feasibility of the concept. And after that... Well... Who knows what may happen. Maybe the devs will have enough resources and confidence to start something mid-to-large scale. So lets make it happen folks, lets make it happen.
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Just a quick mention here:
I realized that I already have all the essentials set up, and instead of postponing things further I felt like starting a small campaign right at the first day of the year. This is not targeted for any wide audience, but seeking a team of people who wish to support and to participate in the project. For more info see the homemade campaign page (https://www.enormouselk.com/?q=games/ancientsavoproject)
Since this thread is already cluttered by quite a lot of "maybe-this-way-and-what-about-that-and...", I will start a fresh thread as promised. I'll probably do that in the off-topic section, for strictly speaking this is not general UnReal World discussion, but a general Enormous Elk thing =) But due to the way my mind works (ie. going step by step), I'll post that fresh announcement later on next week, once I see how the campaign start has been.
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Since a new thread will be started, I think its ok to continue for a bit with "maybe-this-way-and-what-about-that-and...". So I would like to ask if there are any other alternatives to paypal. I was never a fan and after several issues closed my account years ago and I am really NOT looking forward to opening another one. Erkka, please do not take it as yet another push at you, but I would really like to see some options. If there is absolutely no other choice, I guess I'll open another paypal account, but I would strongly prefer not to be bothered with it again.
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Hehe, yes, continuing this thread is good for more background- and meta discussion.
So I would like to ask if there are any other alternatives to paypal
That is a good question, thanks for asking! All this time I was under the impression that for the customer it is easy to send money via PayPal without an account. In which case they'd just ask your card number and stuff, and then process they payment. Your question made me to check the details of the procedure, and indeed it seems that such an option exists, but it isn't anywhere to be found. In other words, over the years PayPal has been making their user experience less user-friendly. Oh well.
Well, but the good thing is that with this kind of home-made campaign we always have alternatives. They are:
- Good old squirrel hides. Sending me a personal message to ask for my mail address to send anything nice, usable, fun or helpful stuff.
- A bank transfer. Again, first sending a message to ask for more detailed instructions. I think this is a handy alternative especially in EU.
- A card payment. Send me a message (preferably e-mail), describing the amount you'd like to donate. I'll then use PayPal to send you an invoice - I think in that case the recipient can simply click "pay now" button on the invoice message, and pay it with a card instead of a paypal account.
- Send me a message suggesting your own alternative. I'm not asking anything, but I promise to consider offers and questions. (Like, are you skilled in 3D modelling, fluent with Blender and such tools, and would like to participate in the developing team? That might be possible, but at the moment I'm not actively looking to expand the team, but as the development goes on at some point I might be more than happy to outsource certain pieces of the workload)
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Personally I will support whatever you folks do! UrW is one of the best games ever made.