Messages

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Suggestions / Re: Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods

« on: May 05, 2024, 11:20:04 PM »

 
No offense was intended. This was about the history of modding which you always made an available part of Unreal World. Many suggestions and possible updates exist for any game. When an update is developed and others not there will always be some different views on which one to do next or how it was done.

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On the ancestral mods...

To phrase differently players making axes, bows, lamellar armor was added by mods for years. Rain's ironworking is an example. Since Rain wrote that mod various game updates have made his code not work or miss key changes like the introduction of cord lengths. Keeping Rain's going has been part of the BAC by updating those recipes to the current mod language. 

As an example when the blacksmithing update was added the vanilla game now allowed ordering axes form villages. Vanilla players wanting to a specific axe could now get one likely through more hunting & hidework to get the value. Modded players were already making their own choice of axe, exploring the wilderness for sources of iron, crafting tools for getting ore, making charcoal and so on.

I am overall pleased to see more aspects being added to Unreal world and hope to one day see a vanilla player blacksmithing their own axe far away from a village.

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On the number of users

For the amount of community interest the BAC 3.82 version shows 524 downloads in post #1 of :https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=7176.0

Each time the game went through major updates so did BAC with a new thread to the new game version. So the total number of downloads is hard to know. Many BAC users would have downloaded the next version so the figure above is can be viewed as the active users.


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BAC was sized to have lots yet keeping a couple letters free specifically to allow any additions a particular player might want.

The mod community also has a few career mods like bee keeping which some might want and others not.

Some mods introduce being able to train your combat skills through various token systems. While likely of interest to many players it takes a few menu letters to achieve this so wasn't in the BAC. It could potentially be chosen by a player from the free spaces left by the BAC.


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A suggestion was to add separate craft menu for mods to use. Right? Let's make sure I understand the proposed suggestion correctly and then brainstorm as necessary. 
So, let's say we'll make a letter O to open a blank make menu, which you can then fill with modded stuff like the current Make menu. And this would be menu that is reserved for mods only. The game craftings would appear in the exisiting Make menu, like currently. Now, if you would then fill this one modders make menu (O) with one big mod it would be..well..full. If there was a few smaller mods that you would like to put there, with custom menu entries or keys even, they would get messed up and tangled together.
If implemented like this it doesn't sound like a plausible long-term solution, or am I not understanding the suggestion?

Correct. That is the current request.

Modders over the year had requested make menu tiers, that is you open make and open a letter than another letter then the 25 recipes for 15,625 possible craft items. Memory recalls an impression on the complexity being an issue on implementing.

The current make menu has ~25x25 = 625 possible entries. By combining many of the popular mods (Rain etc) yes BAC is running close to that. Certain things have been done to save on space like "iron nails" and "iron rivets" being one recipe as the production is very similiar.

There are some mod swap, letter swap methods that are out there as mentioned by Galgana though I've personally never used them.

The modder's crafting single letter was put forward as a lower coding request. It would mean 625 that a modder can use without the "mod collision" that happens when new features are added to vanilla.

"Mod collision" happens when the vanilla game adds crafting to what the modding already had there is some in game disruptions and confusion. An example is the hafting vs BAC's existing mod code. Yes eventually the BAC would be adapted to the new vanilla standard. Until then here are some things that happen:

- BAC included making an axe thus has both an "axe head" and "axe haft"
- BAC "axe heads" don't work with the new vanilla axe fixing. Players get confused.
- BAC "axe haft" doesnt work with new vanilla axe haft so can't fix a broken axe. Players get confused.
- BAC included a chance of a bad axe mounting and recovering a BAC "axe head"

If the vanilla items and mod items are separate then for the above example what is a "BAC axe head" is kept clearly from "Vanilla axe head" and so on.

Further some item creations involve many steps. BAC has "iron nails" that are double used as rivets do save on menu space. Should at some point Saami add nails or rivets the vanilla/mod make split would avoid confusion between whose rivets are needed in recipes. This is intended as a support not a reducing of the vanilla updates.

In time the mods could update assuming the modder is still around in the community.

As another example. [Bowyer] has been added a skill. I actually think that is great. At the time of the last BAC update there was no such skill so the recipes for bow making it has couldn't use it. In time the  mod could be changed over to it. I also wouldn't be surprised if there a players confused on which bow string to use as some will be vanilla bow strings and some BAC bow strings.

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Suggestions / Re: Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods

« on: May 02, 2024, 08:03:56 PM »

The challenge is as new vanilla crafting methods (nets, axes, bows) there is both space needed and a duality that exists. Since a BAC install will overwrite some menus reports are players get confused as to if they dehaft with the new vanilla system they then end up in a BAC menu which doesn't use the same thing and vice versa.

Hmm. Why won't you remove the duality from BAC then? If there is somekind of hafting in BAC, what's the reason for still keeping it in there and reserving the space when there's proper in-game hafting mechanics to use.

If the intention is to have modded counterpart for everything, and not to utilize the existing resources and mechanics, it's doomed way anyway.

Cart <> Horse debate.

As the ancestral mods go back to Rain's ironworking it added the ability to make most of the in game items. This being done at a time when vanilla had no way to do so.

I do think adding into vanilla making items is good. Your own views on times, resources and coding like haft will take of course be different and that's fine. Things like pausable crafting didn't exist so we had to limit times too.

Eventually after each update the duplications would in time be dropped. However at the time of release there is a lot of jumbled things. Like BAC axe heads aren't the new vanilla axe heads. BAC axe hafts aren't the new vanilla axe hafts. Players in the middle of play get confused, frustrated and might not even see the new vanilla menus depending on which installs over the other.

Having an extra letter would let the large mod items exist separately. On a new vanilla update both could exist without that jumble. In time the mod could be updated and remove what is now duplicated by new vanilla code. Example 3.84 added more bows which were already craftable by the mods.

There is also a matter of who will be updating BAC as it might not be myself in the next few cycles. It is set up as a "community" collective and there has been other caretakers along the way. The one extra button is something that gives the large mod time to sort out without thrashing existing games when ongoing vanilla updates creates new duplicates are new principles. Principles like the cordage update and pausable crafts.

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Suggestions / Re: Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods

« on: May 02, 2024, 05:07:45 AM »

The number of entries is likely in the hundreds yes. Its name include "and community" as there is ALOT of recipes from many of our community in it. I acted as the primary but not only curator.  Its how upto 3.82 the BAC combined kept alive mods like Rain's Ironworking, Endive Survival, Bouddia, Weaving, my own collection of oddities, Iago's whittling and many others.

The make menu allows IIRC 24 letters. Of the 24 letters allowed BAC uses 22 with only about 2 unused. Thus any update which makes use of a new letter, like hafting did in 3.83 creates collision with the mod.

It has the production steps for gathering, smelting, forging iron to make axes, swords, metal armor, helms. There was bow making and arrow making. More items included wool making for wool clothing, retting and so on to end up with cloth clothing and bags, clay crafting for pots and containers. A collection of cooking recipes as well.

Overall...

I encourage and expect the ongoing vanilla adds to pull in the mod versions of things, like bow making now, into vanilla recipes. That's a good thing.

The recipes at the times pushed the limits of what we could do like no step could take more than 8 hours due to needing food and water. One affect is that to have longer processes, like making a canoe, they had to be broken down into 8 hour steps each needing a menu item entry. Now Saami has nicely added pausable crafting. So there is some long projects which could be updated.

The challenge is as new vanilla crafting methods (nets, axes, bows) there is both space needed and a duality that exists. Since a BAC install will overwrite some menus reports are players get confused as to if they dehaft with the new vanilla system they then end up in a BAC menu which doesn't use the same thing and vice versa.

So to avoid the large mod overlap with the least programming it would be good if we could have a modders second letter for making items. We could just stick large mods like BAC there. Then when the game updates, as it should, with new updated items players current games would know to continue with vanilla or BAC. Example being axe making and rehafting are not compatible between 3.82 BAC and 3.82 vanilla.



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If you do want to at least see how much was in BAC it was last updated to 3.82 so please use that version of the game. There is short adjustment needed for 3.83. No updating has been put forward for 3.84. Even a few minutes would show you the extent to what BAC grew into.

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Mod Releases / Re: [3.82] Community Mod BAC: Smith, Cooking, Survival, Carpentry, Sewing and

« on: April 29, 2024, 09:06:57 PM »

Please show support for the suggestion thread for the above at:

https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=7264.msg23129

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Suggestions / Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods

« on: April 29, 2024, 09:00:53 PM »

Mod collision continues to happen with the 3.83 and 3.84 updates with it going to continue to cause conflicts with large mods like the BAC

If you could give us a single key for a craft menu only for modded items it would help greatly. The large BAC mod could be fired up that way with its existing ways of making axes, bows and so on that date back to Bouddia and Rain.

The existing craft menu could remain the same and modders could add to it like now, though knowing that future updates may cause collisons.

Collisions as discussed before happen when updates add items to menus that cause overflow when the total of (new vanilla plus mod items) exceeds the allowed amounts and in the case of the Hafted menu a letter (in this case "H") already being used by a mod.

There are 3 solutions.
= Tiered menu where you open crafting then choose a master menu A, B, C etc but this hasn't been implemented as a heavy coding change

= Co-ordinating the top menu of letters with a large mode like BAC which has already puzzled out things but clearly with "H" for a couple of hafting items isn't of interest

= Give modders a one letter for a seperate modders craft menu. This seems plausible and with limited coding needs. Simply put instead of the "M" for make another letter is u sed to open another craft menu. A craft menu that the dev >NEVER< puts vanilla items into. Instead the large modders can use this as a safe space to figure out on our own large collections such as BAC.

Frankly the ongoing additions of a few items like hand axes and bow making has been modded since long before BAC dating to Bouddia and Rain years ago. I agree that added pausable crafting is a good thing and in time Saami should integrate many of the crafts into vanilla. What is killing the game of those using large mods, and many do use BAC, is the mod collision along the way.

The "modder craft menu" is a more specific lower coding requirement that would support with the large mods. Unreal has long had a commitment and encouragement to modding, such as the initial webpage hosting. Its been years since the first days. You have the success of large mods. For them to function they need to avoid mod collison.

A single separate menu would work for this.

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Mod Releases / Re: [3.82] Community Mod BAC: Smith, Cooking, Survival, Carpentry, Sewing and

« on: April 29, 2024, 07:50:02 PM »

Remember the BAC was last updated to 3.82. The 3.83 fix is discussed above. 3.84 will break it more.

I use a personal rule that if i'm not playing a game I'm not modding it. Currently I'm not. The item creation list of 3.83 and 3.84 was already covered by BAC and really by precussor mods going back years. The shift to pausable item creation is overall a good thing but what I would actually do isn't changing... so not really an incentive to return to play.

BAC is a community mod with a take over clause thus if someone wants to do an update if the caretaker (often but not always me) isn't around then someone can. So if someone wants to take on 3.84 updates they can and should start a new thread for it.

Things large mods like BAC really need are one of these solutions:

A= A new keyboard menu for "modded crafting" where it opens a craft menu that the dev >NEVER< puts vanilla items into
B= Tiered menus where you can swap around the 26ish letters so load between vanilla and mods
C= Co-ordinating the existing mods for submenus like what was broken when "hafting" H collided with the H of a mod.

Without one of those each update will further break large mods like BAC and I don't really plan on chasing updates on a game I'm not currently playing.

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Stories / Re: Tapio's blessing

« on: February 05, 2024, 03:11:27 AM »

You have found a cave of the old ones. Sleeping within may change you forever.

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Mod Releases / Re: [3.82] Community Mod BAC: Smith, Cooking, Survival, Carpentry, Sewing and

« on: February 05, 2024, 01:11:24 AM »

Apparently there's an error with the stone arrowheads. They are named just "Arrowhead" but when trying to craft arrows, they are not recognized as arrowheads.

The recipe in question appears to be a straight copy of the 3.80 vanilla recipe.

Current BAC:
.Stone arrowhead. [effort:2] [phys:hands]         *COMMON*  %-30%     /45/       [patch:5] 
{Rock}       [remove] (1) [patchwise] [noquality] '+(for the head)'
{Stone}             '+(for grinding)' [noquality] [ground]
//3.80 gave this vanilla recipe

From vanilla 3.82
.Stone arrowhead. [effort:2] [phys:hands]         *COMMON*  %-30%     /45/       [patch:5] 
{Rock}       [remove] (1) [patchwise] [noquality] '+(for the head)'
{Stone}             (1) '+(for grinding)' [noquality]

I don't see a difference.

As such if it is a vanilla bug that needs to go to the Bug forums. However before doing that can someone do a check on a vanilla non-BAC game to see if stone arrowheads work?

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Mod Releases / Re: [3.82] Community Mod BAC: Smith, Cooking, Survival, Carpentry, Sewing and

« on: February 05, 2024, 01:08:23 AM »

Broken is never intended. 

Ill take a look.

May have been a game update somewhere changed base objects.

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Mod Releases / Re: [3.82] Community Mod BAC: Smith, Cooking, Survival, Carpentry, Sewing and

« on: January 19, 2024, 05:53:13 AM »

Since Im in a dry spell of playing Im not keen to do the update for the upcoming "hafting" update... which once again creates a mod collision in using a top level letter for... what... all of 2 recipes? which basically already exist in BAC. The use of a staff already matches shaping a rod to be a handle.

Therefore recommending if you are playing from the steam directory to turn the updates off.

If might come out okay in space allotments or it might not. Not sure if its going to be a hardcoded recipe or something we can't turn off.

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Modding / Re: Cheat a "permanent" companion?

« on: December 29, 2023, 11:55:12 PM »

Well done


I wonder how much you have to pay them at the end of 64 days?

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Bug reports / Re: [3.82] "Over the partystack" into freezing water

« on: December 28, 2023, 12:52:48 AM »

7zip is a free compression file and used by some folks. that might help send the log.

Seems even the msglog file is too big when compressed. It's a 1-yr+ character.

Was.



 

(jokingly... i feel your pain... I learned to backup a lot. In fact that's how Saami was able to diagnos the need to disalow watercraft landing on the wilderness map or something like that. I could send him save files close in on either side of a bug)

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Not bugs / Re: Crops not staying planted?

« on: December 27, 2023, 12:18:05 PM »

Was it a village's crop field or one of your own?

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Bug reports / Re: [3.82] "Over the partystack" into freezing water

« on: December 27, 2023, 12:17:26 PM »

7zip is a free compression file and used by some folks. that might help send the log.

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Not bugs / Re: [3.80beta] Two bugs - Sage quest & Field plants disappearing

« on: December 27, 2023, 12:15:36 PM »

Disappearing near a village might be related to the village harvesting their crops.

As to it be sudden 100% collected does mean there is none left for gleaning.

May or may not be working as intended. Certainly making it hard on the character plan.

Have you checked on tiles 2 or 3 away from a village. (if any such exist) Those seem to not generate "you're stealing" type messages so might be except from the auto-harvest that this might be.