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Suggestions / Re: Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods
« on: Today at 07:08:58 PM »
Here comes a brief catch-up with the replies I haven't yet responded. The discussion may continue and possible changes are being pondered accordingly. Amid all the other issues at hand, that is.
Increasing the possible number of variants and for wider range of tiles could indeed enhance the experience regardless of it being thought of being a modding feature. In the future we're evidently need to undergo a greater graphics update, once again, which will require serious rewrite of the graphics engine. More variants possibility might get considered then, but for now it is a low priority. Plus, having started with mere ASCII graphics the game has always been developed from the content over graphics perspective. And it shows.
(And as a curiosity the most frequently popping up graphics suggestion over the past decade has been probably to go for 3D.)
I believe you're quite right with that. Hence the careful considerations will save both my and modders time.
Easy and quick editing was indeed one of the key elements I had in mind when modding was introduced. Just drop in a snippet of modding code and it's in effect. Or to adjust the recipe if you'd personally prefer it the other way.
With dedicated mods make menu there would be indeed separation between the original recipes and modded recipes, both in menu level and editable text files level. Of course the original diy_* etc. files would still remain editable, and new file snippets could be added, and the edits and additions for those would appear in the original make menu. Mod recipes would appear in mods make menu. So with an example of making wooden stakes you could still quickly add your own "wooden stakes from boards" diy_* snippet to the original recipes and it would appear in the original Make menu.
Or you could also make your own lumber (or whatever you want to name it) category as a mod diy_* and it would appear there in the mod make menu.
Hmm. I'm not sure if I managed to describe it correctly. I'll try again.
Let's assume you're creating your own mod, and there are no other mods installed.
You would not get any extra hassle, the game wouldn't notify you of any modding conflicts.
Let's say your own mod would have recipes for four items: Round item, square item, long item and short item.
Excellent. Now let's imagine Player X likes your mod and installs it.
After a while Player X decides to create his own mod for crafting long item, as he prefers it to be done the other way. Player X is very happy with the rest of the items in your mod and doesn't want to touch them.
Now if Player X would install his own mod on top of your mod there would be two mods with a recipe for long item.
In this case the game would check and somehow confirm if the player would like to use your recipe or Player X's recipe for crafting long item.
Something like this needs to be done anyway if the problem now is that all the space and available entries get eaten up and reserved. Otherwise mods that would modify or add the same recipes to any extent can't co-exist. Yes, they can't co-exist currently either, and players need to shuffle with loaders, manual editing and stuff. But to invest time to add a separate mod make menu which would exclude different mods to co-exists once it's (yet again) filled all up would be waste of (my) time from my perspective.
Yeah, after years or decades of roaming the unreal world it's truly so in my opinion too that modded stuff can answer to "hmm, what should I do next" feelings, or to the classical "end-game" boredom. The game is indeed very much what you make of it, even though I would phrase the rest of sentence a differently. And well, as far as I am concerned it's very much confirmed that the game has enough content to support long gamespan. Which of course is debatable and varies between the players and playstyle. Heh, and with a such freedom allowing beast of like UrW the thing is that there's never enough content for everyone, no matter how much is added. (This a fact pretty much all the devs have to live with.)
We do have suggestions forum, where suggestions can be posted, and we are constantly - and I truly mean constantly - being asked, requested, suggested and sometimes plain commanded to do this and that.
With good manners suggestions are not unreasonable. What is unreasonable is to expect all of them to happen.
However, for years already we've passed the critical mass point of suggestion flood and still fortunately remain a rare example of developers actually (still) communicating with the players and taking their thoughts into consideration.
If the probable modders are counted in hundreds the players are nowadays counted in tens of thousands.
Speaking of game limits, I can't resist of inventing a developer's aphorism/koan of the day:
Does Tetris game have a limit of not featuring table tennis mode?
I think we have quite good understanding of the most wanted features from the suggestions sections already, where also new things to craft are also popping up. I also get the picture that things that are on the development roadmap are being modded also. For us, to stay on track, it's the suggestions section where we expect the new ideas and features to be presented and there they remain nicely and easily accessible when looking for new features consider. And for most of the suggestions I usually get "yes, yes, that would be nice, in time, hopefully." feeling My personal to-do list actually doesn't go shorter but longer with every version release. This may sound odd, but it's a fact.
One ardent wish I have on the graphics-side of modding is support for additional truetile variant indices. As much as I enjoy seeing the sprite artworks that members of the community were inspired to create for replacer mods, the impossibility of simultaneously using all these files feels unfortunate.
For instance, tree terrain tiles are limited to displaying 2-3 variants at most (including broadleaf trees in winter mode), but I would love to wander through woodlands populated with a mix of Krutzel's Spirited Sprites having both its tall and standard-height trees alongside kullervo's trees.
Increasing the possible number of variants and for wider range of tiles could indeed enhance the experience regardless of it being thought of being a modding feature. In the future we're evidently need to undergo a greater graphics update, once again, which will require serious rewrite of the graphics engine. More variants possibility might get considered then, but for now it is a low priority. Plus, having started with mere ASCII graphics the game has always been developed from the content over graphics perspective. And it shows.
(And as a curiosity the most frequently popping up graphics suggestion over the past decade has been probably to go for 3D.)
Quote
Streamlining mod integrations may sound nice in theory, but I'm worried that it will be a rocky road for a while before we reach a smooth grade.
I believe you're quite right with that. Hence the careful considerations will save both my and modders time.
Dedicated hotkey for mods would make sense.
But would that outrule current option to touch up/edit vanilla recipes?
I like that I don’t need to add new menudef to add say wooden mugs or making stakes from boards, just add those in the vanilla diy_glossary.
I would prefer the “easy editing” stay as is.
Easy and quick editing was indeed one of the key elements I had in mind when modding was introduced. Just drop in a snippet of modding code and it's in effect. Or to adjust the recipe if you'd personally prefer it the other way.
With dedicated mods make menu there would be indeed separation between the original recipes and modded recipes, both in menu level and editable text files level. Of course the original diy_* etc. files would still remain editable, and new file snippets could be added, and the edits and additions for those would appear in the original make menu. Mod recipes would appear in mods make menu. So with an example of making wooden stakes you could still quickly add your own "wooden stakes from boards" diy_* snippet to the original recipes and it would appear in the original Make menu.
Or you could also make your own lumber (or whatever you want to name it) category as a mod diy_* and it would appear there in the mod make menu.
Quote
Also for reading all the recipes at game launch, it’d make testing mods a massive pain. Edit, save mod. Shutdown, start game. Find a need to edit further. Repeat.
Hmm. I'm not sure if I managed to describe it correctly. I'll try again.
Let's assume you're creating your own mod, and there are no other mods installed.
You would not get any extra hassle, the game wouldn't notify you of any modding conflicts.
Let's say your own mod would have recipes for four items: Round item, square item, long item and short item.
Excellent. Now let's imagine Player X likes your mod and installs it.
After a while Player X decides to create his own mod for crafting long item, as he prefers it to be done the other way. Player X is very happy with the rest of the items in your mod and doesn't want to touch them.
Now if Player X would install his own mod on top of your mod there would be two mods with a recipe for long item.
In this case the game would check and somehow confirm if the player would like to use your recipe or Player X's recipe for crafting long item.
Something like this needs to be done anyway if the problem now is that all the space and available entries get eaten up and reserved. Otherwise mods that would modify or add the same recipes to any extent can't co-exist. Yes, they can't co-exist currently either, and players need to shuffle with loaders, manual editing and stuff. But to invest time to add a separate mod make menu which would exclude different mods to co-exists once it's (yet again) filled all up would be waste of (my) time from my perspective.
Welp, time to also throw in my two cents - I'm one of the old legacy people who have purchased it, back in ye olden days, so I feel like I've got some experience under my belt.
I eventually stumbled upon the BAC mod while looking on how to enhance my gameplay, given I've been playing UrW for quite a while, and as a result I basically never play without it anymore. Why? The game as it stands, is what you make of it: no overarching story, no fun little quirkiness to uncover, just pure, unadulterated survival, and that is great.
HOWEVER - to be long time invested into something like that, the game needs to have enough content to support the long gamespan we are talking about in those runs, which is where the BAC mod comes in.
Yeah, after years or decades of roaming the unreal world it's truly so in my opinion too that modded stuff can answer to "hmm, what should I do next" feelings, or to the classical "end-game" boredom. The game is indeed very much what you make of it, even though I would phrase the rest of sentence a differently. And well, as far as I am concerned it's very much confirmed that the game has enough content to support long gamespan. Which of course is debatable and varies between the players and playstyle. Heh, and with a such freedom allowing beast of like UrW the thing is that there's never enough content for everyone, no matter how much is added. (This a fact pretty much all the devs have to live with.)
Quote
And I have to say, it does not feel unreasonable to make a request towards the developers, accomodating the ever growing modding community because of the games limits.
We do have suggestions forum, where suggestions can be posted, and we are constantly - and I truly mean constantly - being asked, requested, suggested and sometimes plain commanded to do this and that.
With good manners suggestions are not unreasonable. What is unreasonable is to expect all of them to happen.
However, for years already we've passed the critical mass point of suggestion flood and still fortunately remain a rare example of developers actually (still) communicating with the players and taking their thoughts into consideration.
If the probable modders are counted in hundreds the players are nowadays counted in tens of thousands.
Speaking of game limits, I can't resist of inventing a developer's aphorism/koan of the day:
Does Tetris game have a limit of not featuring table tennis mode?
I don't think it would hurt for the developers to look at mods occasionally to get some additional perspective on intended new functionality. Not as "this is how it has to be", but rather to provide aspects they may not have thought of. Also, a proper implementation would not be restricted by the same constraints mods have. However, the developers obviously have to manage their time, and looking at mods may well end up in the "no time for this now" bucket constantly.
I think we have quite good understanding of the most wanted features from the suggestions sections already, where also new things to craft are also popping up. I also get the picture that things that are on the development roadmap are being modded also. For us, to stay on track, it's the suggestions section where we expect the new ideas and features to be presented and there they remain nicely and easily accessible when looking for new features consider. And for most of the suggestions I usually get "yes, yes, that would be nice, in time, hopefully." feeling
My personal to-do list actually doesn't go shorter but longer with every version release. This may sound odd, but it's a fact.
Actually, and really, of course it is a game.