Messages

181

General Discussion / Re: Njeperz, who are they and why?

« on: March 28, 2019, 08:29:50 AM »

Didn't know UrW time frame is Corresponding to Medieval Age,

Yes, that is because while most of the Europe was living High Middle Ages marked by influence of The Church, cultures in Finland and Scandinavia were still pagan. So, in the history of Finland "Middle Age" only begins after the King of Sweden had converted to Christianity and launched a series of crusades to Finland, eventually conquering the territory. (that happens gradually during 1150 - 1250 AD. UnReal World is not stricty based on exact timeline, we are using some artistic freedom to imagine a world where those crusades either started a bit later, or didn't happen at all.)

So, before those events Sweden, Norway and Denmark were living their Viking Era, the rest of the Europe was Middle Ages, and in Finland it was the Viking period of Iron Age. (The philosophical point; History often operates on broad general terms which apply to central areas. When speaking about the history of Europe we conveniently use terms like 'Antiquity', 'Middle Ages' and 'Modern Times', but it should be noted that those broad terms don't apply uniformly to all of what is now Europe. The details and local variations are always a lot more diverse than the convenient simplicity offered by the general broad descriptions.)

182

Suggestions / Re: Could whistling arrows prove a good addition to ranged hunting ?

« on: February 06, 2019, 05:21:06 PM »

Yes, that's what I meant. It's all about tricking the birds to land temporarily,

Yeah, I was somewhat vague with my quotation, as my main intention was to clarify on the comment by More_tribal_interaction; indeed, when scared by a loud noise, the natural reaction of most of the birds, most of the time, would be to scatter away, taking evasive manouvers in flight (making them even harder to hit with an arrow). So the special trick is with aquatic birds when they happen to be flying above a body of water - in that spesific case their insincts drive them to dive into the water, instead of trying to rapidly fly away.

183

Suggestions / Re: Could whistling arrows prove a good addition to ranged hunting ?

« on: February 03, 2019, 07:41:17 PM »

As Sami explains in the video, the particular design of whistling arrowhead he's demonstrating creates a sound that is reminescent of a falcon or other bird of prey's cry or chirp. Birds hunted by these species often have a tendency to seek cover if they hear these sounds. I suppose it's because many small bird of prey species, falcons included, are notoriously fast flyers. It might be a better survival strategy to ground yourself and hide, rather than trying to outfly them.

I don't have referenfe books at hand, but based on my memory: a whistling arrow works with aquatic birds, when the flock is flying above a body of water. The arrow is shot so that it flies above the flock of birds - they hear the whistling sound above them, take it as a sign of danger, and seek cover by diving into the water below them. Then the hunter readies ordinary hunting arrows, waits for the birds to surface one after one, trying to hit them the very moment when they surface - that often is the moment when they don't move for a second, and we all know that hitting a stationary target is far more easier than trying to down a flying bird.

184

Suggestions / Re: Craftable punts ? And what should the limitations be ?

« on: December 02, 2018, 03:35:34 PM »

There's actually a video of making an UnReal World -style punt. The footage is from 1936, so they're making a somewhat more modern version than the simple punt used in UrW. I'd assume UrW punt comes without those extra added boards to the sides, which they start attaching at 4:09 in the video.

185

Off-topic / Testing things you can do in UnReal World

« on: November 25, 2018, 06:07:31 PM »

Hello there,

my personal YouTube channel has been mostly for all around tongue-in-cheek silliness. So, just for convenience, I organized UnReal World -related stuff to a playlist.

ps. and let me remind that Sami has an excellent YouTube channel dedicated to traditional arhery.

186

General Discussion / Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?

« on: November 25, 2018, 05:56:37 PM »

Your logic is flawed - everything has realistic range except throwign weponz - spears and stones! Even I CAN aim on 30 m with stone to hit head sized target!

I agree - my logic is flawed, and arm-chair philosophy is always unrealiable. So I decided to turn to empirical evidence. I gathered some items with corresponding weights as their equivalents in UnReal World. I shot a video of tossing items (both in UnReal World and in the real life).

And I must admit that Aramis seems to be partially right - item throwing distances might use some adjusting. Crude javelins in UnReal World fly too far. Or then it is that UnReal World characters are better at throwing items, having a better technique and giving projectiles greater velocity than I could do.

Here are the results for me and my UnReal World character Pekka;

Crude javelins (3 lbs) : Pekka 26 - 30 metres, Erkka 12 - 15 metres
A rock (1 lbs) : Pekka 17 - 20 metres, Erkka 17 - 20 metres
A stone (14 lbs) : Pekka 12 metres, Erkka 7 metres

(I repeated the real life test three times. For the first two runs I had my stone weight messed up, I was using a 14 kg stone instead of 14 lbs one. On the second test I got javelins to 15 metres. But instead of using that clip in the video I wanted to be precise with my stone weight, so I did a third test.)

187

General Discussion / Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?

« on: November 21, 2018, 10:03:07 PM »

A stone weighs 14 lbs

Yeah, so are the stones in UnReal World. Which happens to be about the same weight as the shot used in olympic shot put (for male competitors). At the moment the world record for shot put is 23.12 metres. So either our Aramis is a secret world champion, or then he is throwing stones which weigh significantly less. But what do I know - my logic is obviously flawed, so I don't even try to understand =) I'm merrily waiting for Aramis to post video footage of throwing stones and accurately hitting targets at 30 m, for I'm a simple man and it is easier for me to comprehend stuff when I see them at work. 

188

General Discussion / Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?

« on: November 21, 2018, 09:48:27 PM »

Even I CAN aim on 30 m with stone to hit head sized target!

Hey that is interesting! Next time you try that, could you please measure the weight of the stone you throw? For, UnReal World simulation can't be changed without knowing the exact values needed for variables.

Also, a video could be helpful, so that we could see the throwing technique you are using (are you standing still, or you do you combine your body movement + hand movement to deliver the stone with greater velocity)

189

General Discussion / Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?

« on: November 21, 2018, 11:23:20 AM »

Mens spear for throwing weights 800 g. There is no way in hell some old strong dude throws this just 16-18 meters

Hmm... I don't know but to me it seems that you are partially ignoring all the fact-based rational and friendly arguments which people have already written in this thread. So it probably won't help if I repeat what has been already said. Instead I try to speak using the same language you've been using this thread. Here goes;

A modern olympic athlete aims to throw a spear as FAR AS POSSIBLE. To do that, they throw a VOLLEY SHOT meaning that the javelin will fly HIGH until it hits the field in almost upright position. They do NOT aim at a target - they merely want to have the javelin land in the legitimate sector, not falling outside the boundary lines.

There is no way in hell in REAL LIFE a REAL HUNTER would want to use a VOLLEY SHOT to hit an animal.

190

General Discussion / Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?

« on: November 19, 2018, 10:27:27 PM »

Learning Java...

Good luck, and enjoy the learning!

Maybe you could use these ponderings as a learning project? Code an object called Creature, and give it methods like "throw", "takeDamage", "bleed" etc. Then code an object Projectile, give it methods like "fly" and "hit", and a range of properties (like weight, blade width, blade sharpness etc). Now you can populate your world with a few creatures, giving them a variety of projectiles. So when a creature throws a projectile, it invokes the projectile fly method. Upon hitting a target the projectile invokes takeDamage of the target creature, and takeDamage method in itself performs various checks, sometimes yielding only a flesh wound, sometimes invoking bleeding. Add and tweak the values of all the variables to see how they play together.

Železný thrown 100 meters.

I'm not expert in this area, but somehow I'd guess modern sports equipment made of hi-tech materials don't fully compare to iron-age wooden spears and javelins. I'm not a big fan of sports, but I think I've sometimes seen it on TV, and I've seen they run and then throw the javelin, so that the javelin departure velocity is something like running speed + hand movement. These things are often a bit different in the game, I think.

 (Also, the way the game works, it doesn't set any maximum distance for a thrown object. It just starts with the item weight, it's estimated atmospheric drag etc, and initial velocity and aim - and then just runs the simulation to see where the projectile will end. So, if we'd like to make javelins fly farther, we'd either need to decrease their weight, or increase the velocity. Personally, I feel that the velocity delivered by hand movement is now about correctly simulated in the game.)

Spears need more love.

If you have more detailed wishes in your mind, please tell. Preferably starting a new topic in the suggestions section, as that is where we return to browse new and old threads when needed.

191

General Discussion / Re: Why are spears and javelins with lover damage than arrows yet are much bigger?

« on: November 19, 2018, 09:02:06 PM »

This is hunters experiences. Sammi is programmer, not hunter.

Well, then - may I ask if you are a programmer, also?

I mean, from the programmers' point of view, this thread seems to be pretty much based on oversimplified assumptions about how the game mechanics work at the moment. And, the exact mechanics of the simulation aren't described in detail (this is by purpose - we think the immersion is often better when the player can't calculate everything. So it is often better to go by how you'd expect things to be in real life and then hope the simulation got it all simulated.)

Weapon damage values are just one aspect in the calculations the game uses.

For projectiles there are a whole lot of unseen variables affecting what happens. Weight and velocity are there, and so is atmospheric drag - projectile velocity decreases metre by metre because of atmospheric drag.

192

Gameplay questions / Re: Dont understand how trapping fence works

« on: September 24, 2018, 09:15:35 PM »

The problem with a funnel in UrW is the lack angled fences.

If anyone wants to test in the game, maybe try something like this

Code: [Select]

####________
___####_____
______####__
_________###
__________oo
_________###
______####__
___####_____
####________

and if you mirror the fence construction to the right side, the traps would probably catch all animals travelling in east-west direction. But, yeah, the square tile-based approach of UrW isn't that good for modelling angled constructs.

193

Gameplay questions / Re: Dont understand how trapping fence works

« on: September 24, 2018, 06:02:57 PM »

or maybe this?

Code: [Select]

____#____
____#____
____#____
___ooo___
###obo###
___ooo___
____#____
____#____
____#____

_ = some terrain
# = fence
o = a trap
b = a bait (optional, can be replaced by yet another trap)

ps. this is not anything I've personally tested in the game, but an adaptation of an actual arrangement which has been historically used. Some historical trap fence consturctions were built so that the passage between fences gets narrower and narrower, thus funneling animals into the trap. I see tedomedo is on the right track thinking about fenced passageways leading to a trap, but I'd guess the key is to make it so that it is maximally easy to enter the passageway.

194

General Discussion / Re: Some new player's feedback

« on: August 03, 2018, 07:43:44 AM »

Even when animals enter your field of view this happens, and that's in most cases far from being life or death. What's the logic behind this? It might be a bear that might try to kill you? You might be starving and desperate to hunt an animal? Well doesn't the same logic apply to freezing to death and unsafe ice because they're just as life-threatening? 

Hmm, to me it seems that the logic is the same. Travelling on the world map, you get zoomed in the moment there is an animal in the same map tile as you. But you are not given a notice two tiles beforehand, when your character does not have any direct evidence of an animal possibly being somewhere ahead.

Walking on ice you are given a notice the moment your character notices that ice has become dangerous, but you are not told two hours beforehand when your character thinks that there is increased likelihood that some time in the near future the ice could possibly maybe become dangerous.

But the thing is, my character most likely would be aware of the risk factors in reality. He would see the snow / ice thawing, feel the temperature to be above freezing, take note of the whole weather situation, remember the development of the past days / weeks and yes he'd also have the oppurtunity to check the ice thickness (which I know is not a feature in the game yet). He'd also have the whole body feeling of actually being on the ice. I as the player am sitting in a comfortable modern apartment at my computer, while the character I'm playing is a Finnish iron age tribesman out in the wilderness who's a lot more in touch with nature than I could ever be

There is the temperature gauge on the top-left corner of the screen. It also tells you if the sky is overcast or sunny. Now, as a player, it is up to you to pay a little attention. If it is spring time, if the temperature is above freezing, and especially if it is sunshine, that means ice conditions will deteriorate quickly.

But, yeah, now when you explain it I do realize that this indeed might not be so clear for players who don't have the real world experience. For us who have grown up with these things, it is about as clear as "oh, fire burns!" or "you get fatigued for running long distances carrying a lots of load". So, yeah, I understand that it would be heplful to have somekind of "newbie tutorial for urban people" which would give players more detailed instructions on basics of dealing with natural environment.

(Another thing might be just a question of getting used to the UI. I remember how, when I started learning to drive a car, I felt it rather demanding trying to distirbute my attention all over - how to keep my eyes on the road yet being constantly aware of what there is on the rear mirrors, what the speedometer says, and also fluently shifting the gears without looking at the gear stick. But after a few weeks I got used to it and nowadays all of that happens automatically without me thinking about it. I can imagine it might a same kind of process with game UI - while the main attention is on the map screen, being also aware of the temperature, the physical stats, the message box.)

Yes, I think that would solve the problem. In fact it would probably be the ideal solution. Until this system is fleshed out, you could make what you wrote earlier part of the tutorial and also write it down in the encyclopedia somewhere:

Ah, yes, improving the game encyclopedia is a constant major task, for there is so much information and sometimes we fail to predict what kind of information the players will need. (Another example is the handling of some mushroom. I, for one, grew up in a family where this was a routine every autumn. Some poisonous mushroom need to be boiled in water, and then the water is thrown away, as the mushroom are no more poisonous but the water is for that is where the poison went. Then we have seen some players being confused as the information said that a certain mushroom will be safe once boiled, and the player used raw mushroom as an ingredient in a stew, thinking that it will become safe as the stew is boiled. Sure, the mushroom becomes safe, but the stew itself becomes poisonous as the poison will remain in the liquid of the stew. Luckily, fellow players on forums are always there to help other players to better understand how these things work, in case we failed to explain it in detail in any of the in-game instructions.)

And what about you? Could you think of writing a small "some tips for newcomers and urban players" piece of instructions? Those can be posted in the tutorials section of the forums, and also added in the wiki.

If you make it clear to the player somehow that travelling on ice when zoomed out does not mean it's completely safe even when the game doesn't force you to zoom in immediately, then you have eliminated the possible miscommunication. If players ignore it, that at least would be on them, not on you.

I'm not sure what counts as "making it clear". I do understand that not many players browse through a text file inside the game folder, but this is what the news.txt says, searching for word "ice": (yes, a wall of text, I know. TLDR; "However, it should be noted that the ice can't never be trusted completely and even when you are allowed to travel on the ice on world map it can still break.")

* realistic modelling of ice and freezing of lakes

          Pretty much everything related to ice has been overhauled.
     Lakes start to freeze when the weather gets cold enough. This doesn't happen the same time every
          year, and the ice also doesn't grow equally thick every year. And when the lakes freeze, they
          now freeze gradually.

          - The ice cover first starts to build up at shallow water and proceeds towards deeper sections from there on.
            How fast the ice cover increases or decreases depends solely on the weather. Ice thickness can also vary at
            different sections of the lake. It's not anymore safe to walk on the ice as soon as there's ice cover on the
            lake. Thin ice can break under any load it can't hold - be it your character, NPCs, animals or items.

          - There's a confirmation to step on the ice if the character doubts the ice will hold. This applies to thin ice
            which characters can easily recognize by stomping on it to see if it cracks. Notice that even if there are no
            doubts and confirmations the ice still isn't necessarily safe to walk on.

          - It's not possible to travel on the ice on world map when the character doesn't trust the ice completely.
            If that's the case a message to zoom in to travel on the ice will be shown. This way the character
            can't mistakenly step on unreliable ice on world map. However, it should be noted that the ice can't
            never be trusted completely and even when you are allowed to travel on the ice on world map it can still
            break. Should this happen, the character is forced on zoomed in map where he/she needs to navigate to
            safe location.

        * falling through the ice

          - If you happen to fall through the ice climbing and pulling yourself back onto the ice is not easy and
            depends on your climbing skill, agility and strength. All of these factors are tested on each turn you try to
            move from the water onto the ice. Wielding any sharp pointy weapon such as knife, sword, spear or even an arrow
            will improve your chances to pull yourself out of the water. Swimming skill is also important as it determines
            for how long and how easily you can keep struggling in the water.

          - If you're unable to get out of the water after 5-10 minutes, you're almost certainly not going to get out.
            Your body temperature starts to drop as soon as you fall in the freezing water, and when hypothermia
            sets in you will eventually lose consciousness and drown. Depending on your swimming and climbing skills
            you will also build up certain amount fatigue on every turn you spend struggling in the water, and the more
            fatigued you get the lower your chances to pull yourself out become.

        * improved mechanics for making a hole in the ice

          - Time required to make a hole in the ice has been adjusted and now also depends on the ice thickness
            and the tool used. It's around 25 minute job to make a hole into half a meter thick ice
            with an axe. An inch thick ice can be broken in a minute or so. If the ice is very thin you can
            also break it without any tools.

          - When making a hole in the ice the best available tool is automatically selected. In addition to axes,
            spears and swords also stones and knives can be now used for breaking ice - even though they are quite
            unhandy for the job. The order of ice breaking tools from best to worst goes as: axe, spear, sword,
            knife, stone.

          - Holes in the ice will freeze back gradually and remain recognizable for a few days. Eventually
            the frozen holes will look like the regular ice cover, but may be weaker than the surrounding ice
            for some time. As holes in the ice won't freeze completely overnight it's now easier to maintain
            your wintertime water supply by breaking the same slightly frozen hole on a regular basis with only
            a little effort.
       
        * water temperature

          - Water temperature factor has been added, and it's precisely tracked thorough the year. It's not anymore
            always pleasant nor possible to swim for equally long time just about any day of the year.

          - Entering the water has faster effect on character's body temperature now. Even if you were feeling warm
            when going to swim in the cold water you'll get chilly or cold very soon. When the water is very warm
            you can spend hours in there without ill effects, but even if the lakes aren't frozen the water can still
            be so cold that there's a true risk of hypothermia. Needless to say, summer is best the season for longer
            swimming trips from now on.

          - If you are about to enter the cold water there's now always a confirmation if you really want to do so.
            It's still safe to swim in the cold water, but now you just may need to warm up properly afterwards
            to get comfortable again. However, entering the cold water when you are already freezing is not a
            wise move.

          - When looking at an adjacent water tile a message about the water temperature will be displayed.
            "The water is freezingly cold.","The water is very cold.","The water is rather warm." etc.

195

General Discussion / Re: Some new player's feedback

« on: July 31, 2018, 09:34:03 PM »

  and I don't see the thawing that occurs and makes ice unsafe. When the game tells you in one situation it's not safe to do something but allows the same action in another, you of course logically assume that it's safe. It's the messages that create the whole problem with the unsafe ice in the first place. 

well, the way I think of it:

- the moment you stepped on the ice it was safe, and the game didn't warn you.
- you kept on happily walking on the safe ice
- the moment you noticed that the ice has been thawing while you walk, becoming dangerously thin, that very moment the game gives you a message and forces you to zoom in, as now every 2 metres counts

this is the logic now. I do understand that it would be very helpful if there were some kind of early warning messages like "you think the ice might be becoming dangerously thin rather soon" or something, but that is always a question of balance. I mean, if there was a small message in the message log, we could still get players complaining "I didn't pay attention to that humble small message, I'd like the game to tell me in big red letters on top of the map screen that things are soon getting dangerous!". Or, if the early warning messages were more attention-catching, I'd guess some players would be complaining "I'd like to have a config option to switch off these annoying spammy messages!". (And, again, we can still think that the system now is that the game tells you as soon as the character notices that the ice is becoming unsafe. The game can't tell you before the character notices that. You are told the moment your character spots the marks of the dangerous thawing. How could the game send you a message about a think your character is not aware of?)

Well, but I agree there could be more player-initiated means to check the ice. Maybe in some future version weatherlore or some other skill could be used to evaluate the ice thickness. I think that would be a realistic way, and leaving the decision up to the player.

ps. what comes to drinking waters; I'm not sure but I'd guess this is something which is different in places with warmer climate, and places with more dense population than iron age Finland. Even nowadays in Finland, especially in remote areas, about all waters are drinkable. The risk of catching a harmful bacterial infection is rather low, and I pretty much believe that the ancient people indeed were more resistant to the common bacteria living in local waters. Yet, I do agree there maybe could be some risk added to drinking bog waters in the warm summer months - but that goes into the more general category of not-yet-implemented features, like the risk of accidentally cutting your knee when felling trees with an axe.