Topic: Northern Tribes  (Read 3648 times)


Twezzk

« on: November 18, 2017, 05:45:40 PM »
First of all im sorry for posting so many questions,i know most of them are silly but i love this game for its roleplay.

This is not a question that has an exact answer but lets try to answer it.

Why are northern people (norther tribes) smaller and lighter in averge (a lot,lot,lot),i mean what male human being 16 years old has 34kg?They mainly eat a diet of meat and should be bulkier (more proteins?)  while their southern brothers eat mainly plants,grains...And why are they darker(darker skin or hair?)as it is usually that people from northern areas are usualy blonde (vikings?)

How did they suceed  to ?evolve? so quicly?How long has it passed since Inehmo became many?

spamgoose

« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2017, 01:10:04 AM »
I think it's a complicated answer.

As I understand it, the Northern Tribes in the game are meant to represent the Sami. There's a general belief (I don't know if evidence has backed it up anywhere) that the Sami are shorter than other northern Europeans.

However, there are a lot of complications. One is that the modern Sami population is genetically complicated and shares a lot of DNA in common with their fellow Scandinavians. The degree to which this is "new" is probably very debatable.

The other is to do with historical bias and the way food effects people. The problem isn't protein vs. grain, so much as it is fat. Animals diets can work, but you need a way to get fat to supplement all that protein or you'll still be suffering from malnutrition.  It's been shown how access to consistent food sources that are high in fat will increase the average heights of populations fairly quickly, when it previously wasn't available. It's hard to tell how much of that is fat, and how much is reliability of food.

If the Sami have been shorter over the last couple hundred years, it probably has a lot to do with being later to the western food party, as well as living in places where agriculture is difficult. I don't know how much fat one gets from Reindeer milk... but reindeer themselves are decently lean. Probably seasonal access and trade for sea goods like seal fat was important to keeping their diet sound.

My point being, the relative shortness of the Sami could be a modern perspective, that we are placing into the past. Coastal Finns with grain, and access to milk and cheese, were probably as tall as anyone else. However, Finns living in the interior were probably not that different than the Sami. It's hard to say.

I'd love to populate a database full of archaeological discoveries of human bodies in Finland and figure it out. It's possible somebody already has.

Regarding darkness... well again, a lot of debate. The reality is there is a lot of variation throughout Scandinavia so I would be remiss to venture a guess as to how much darker, or whether they are darker at all, are the Sami. For some perspective, see this -- especially the talk section. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Sami

So yea... I'm speculating as to the motives for the description... hopefully that gives you some context.

Twezzk

« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2017, 10:49:54 AM »
Well northern tribes should a very high fat consumations as tey eat a lot of fish and fish is high in fat plus seals.
Inuits for example have a 50 percent energy form fat,40,30 from proteins and 10-20 percent from carbs

PALU

« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2017, 11:39:48 AM »
The Saami were basically wholly reliant on reindeer herding and hunting, plus land based fishing (i.e. rivers and lakes), if I understand it correctly. I don't think they used much or any ocean fishing or boats for fishing. Since reindeer have better feed at higher elevations the Saami probably didn't get much access to any of the coasts, and thus not much access to seals (and on the Baltic side the coastal areas were already occupied by agricultural/fishing populations, so they'd risk conflict if moving in that direction). The Saami life stile was quite different from the Eskimo one so that comparison is not particularly useful, unless, of course, (some of) the northern tribes are intended to portray Eskimos rather than Saami, which I don't find likely (and all northern tribes have reindeer, which I don't think Eskimos have ever had: hunting, yes, owning, no).

I would expect the Saami life style to favor stamina and wiriness over brute strength given the need for traveling long distances over snow covered terrain, and I would also expect it to penalize obesity (should the chance to get obese ever arise).

Erkka

« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2017, 12:04:16 PM »
A short clarification as it might not be otherwise obvious:

Quote
And why are they darker(darker skin or hair?)as it is usually that people from northern areas are usualy blonde (vikings?) 

We are mainly talking about hair colour here. In real life, as most of the Finns tend to have either blonde or sand-brown hair, the Saami people often have darker brown hair. But, all in all, I'd guess this is a rather minor detail, isn't it?

Also, just a reminder; although the game world is based on roughly 1000 - 1200 AD Finland, the cultures and tribes aren't intended as 100% historically accurate. We decided to allow ourselves some artistical freedom - that makes game development easier; we can dig into historical facts and sources as much as we like, and when we find conflicting or missing data we can just use our imagination, sometimes also combining different elements and blending them into our imaginary vision of UnReal World.

(I think the other have already pretty much described the reasons why we imagine the semi-nomadic northern tribe members to be somewhat smaller than the southern folks)

Twezzk

« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2017, 01:11:56 PM »
I have just visited wikipedia of sami people and they apear to have lived just as you said but one thing intrigues me.Every picture of a Sami man or a woman looks mongoloid (asian).mabye this is a coincidence but this is really strange.how are sami and finns so closely conected if sami look like chinese.

Erkka

« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2017, 01:42:41 PM »
Did you read the article linked by spamgoose?

The genetic origins of Saami people is a puzzle not quite solved by modern science.

Twezzk

« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2017, 06:59:41 PM »
Then if the northern tribes represent Sami prople as you say,then you should add asian character portraits

DfDevadander

« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2017, 07:34:52 PM »
Then if the northern tribes represent Sami prople as you say,then you should add asian character portraits

Not all Saami people have an Asian look to them, though, as they are quite a varied group; some look very Scandinavian while others resemble Inuit-type people. Remember that the Saami are not exclusive to Finland, and are present across all of Lappland.

JEB Davis

« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2017, 09:16:32 PM »
The character portraits are located in the "truegfx" folder and can be replaced if you want with portraits that suit you better. Actually, just about all the graphics can be replaced, I would just suggest making backup copies of the originals and then just editing the originals to suit, then you don't have to worry about matching up filenames. :)

Zalzany

« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2017, 01:14:07 AM »
Fats in fish ain't a real thing at least not ones I eat, they more lean then chicken and higher protein. Also can't site anything but I heard multiple times with introduciton of Mcdonalds and other fatty american places in Japan cup sizes among other things tend to be on the rise, could be just they sold out and got more boob jobs or just cows, and grains like wheat help you bulk up more while fish, and game meat seem to keep you lighter...

That is my two sense on it, also evolution wise they have no need at all to be taller or fatter up north, as they have furs to stay warm, and being small means wasting less energy. Also every thing you do closer to the artict poles is harder and harder. The closer you get the more calories you burn. I mean people in the south and what not should get less harsh winters, and area is more tamed so to speak while north every thing is harder, just your daily chores like cutting firewood and what not stuff southerns do as well is more labor intense with the climate, the treck through deeper snow, and what not to fact the timber to cut, and very act of being outside and active in general means you burn more trying to stay warm as well.

I mean I live in Arizona, but I use to go up to Flagstaff in our local mountains from the desert valley. Its like 4 hour or so drive, and every thing is harder up there, I vacation so its not bad, but I got wear a ski suit and what not as I go there to ski, and most northern tribes should be using skis, cross country mind you way more then southern tribes. I mean that is my least favorite type.  I got family in northen woods of Oregon as well not even close to climates in finland I bet, but even in the summer its completly diffrent experince, but in the winter oh no they burn twice if not more the caloreis I do in south.

Its a bit of extreme comparison a desert to the Northern woods but point is I think its largely to climate and well just breeding. I mean they are not hooking up with the big tall southerners so they likely to produce small kids just like they are, just like their way of life dictates they would be a little skinnier, yet stronger. I mean I got big mountain man bloodline on my dad's side but that is from France, with rumors a little norwidgen in there some where, but for Frances cold weather woods and what not my ancestors were well adapted as being in middle of Europe they would be fighting more and have more civilization there. I mean during this age my ancestors were probably working fields for a lord, or caring a sword for one. In either case them big like we are and can handle snowy winters in the woods, yet still hold the line in a battle we very well suited.

But the north tribes here I can't see them having to many enemies or lords demanding things from them. I mean who is gonna go all the way up there to seize their ice covered soil, and pile of fish when they can get that from other places easier. I makes perfect sense they were some of the last tamed as only people there for religious conversion really get much out of "taming" the wilds of Finland. That and fur trade... I just don't see the need for the northern tribes to be big, net alone support them getting big, they eat more lean meats then the rest, and we all know grains do make you a bit on fat side :P

Twezzk

« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2017, 11:01:56 AM »
This post has no connection with the northern tribes but i posted it and noebody answered and the questions is very interesting:

You should be able to gain weight if you eat a lot and lose if not.its not realistic eating all the time and not getting heavier.Starving for 30 days should cut your weight in half but our unreal world characters dont seem to lose a kilo.

Also a 16 year old human is still developing physcily and should gain in strenght by farming,chopping wood,hunting...(you should gain strenght as time goes)

Will this be implemented in the game?

Erkka

« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2017, 10:44:27 AM »
Quote
Will this be implemented in the game?

Well, at the moment the development situation is about this:

- Sami is busy working towards a beta release of the upcoming version 3.50
- Once the beta is out, the focus will be mainly on bug fixing
- Eventually there will be a stable release of 3.50
- After that it is time for a short break, as the version-release and bughunt phase is always a somewhat energy-consuming sprint
- And while the players are enjoying the new version, Sami and me will have the next version on the drawing board, deciding the major new features to be implemented in that version.

So, because of the general psychology of the game development cycle, at the moment the answer to any and all "will a feature X be implemented in some future version?" is and will be "we don't know as at the moment we are fully focused on getting the beta release out".

Put in other words; if there isn't an answer from the development team, it typically means that we are busy developing. Going into too detailed discussions about possible future features often just takes time away from the actual development.