Topic: NPCs to use exactly same movement rules as player character.  (Read 10746 times)


JP_Finn

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« on: December 31, 2020, 05:58:18 AM »
Be it walking or running in snow or swimming, paddling on raft, enable exactly same movement for NPCs as character deals with.

No more skiless robbers running in waist deep snow to catch up to grandmaster skier.
No more character peppering Njerpez from watercraft without chance of the hostile to swim over and climb or capsize the vessel.
No more NPCs waltzing through traps. Have them at least kick the trap 1st to trigger them.

Brygun

« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2020, 06:01:09 AM »
No more >LAME< robbers running through thigh deep snow at the same speed as the unwounded character.


PALU

« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2020, 11:39:23 AM »
I agree it would be good if the NPCs used the same rules. However, I don't think it's that easy to get it to work properly:
- Villagers would have to get skis
- NPCs would need to know when and how to use skis and wield/unwield the ski stick (they know how to wield/unwield shields to fire bows, though, so there may be an existing base to build on).
- Once animals know how to use their innate ability to swim it might be time to get humans to learn when and how to swim. However, humans have to learn to swim, and most probably didn't know much about swimming.
- Swimming out to a craft to attack the user seems like an incredibly stupid move to me. Not only is the craft probably faster, but the person on the craft should have a big fighting advantage from being higher and having a footing (rather than literally having to push off of water).
- If NPCs are taught how to move as the PC does, they may also steal your water craft and travel on water craft themselves.

JP_Finn

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« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2020, 04:43:08 PM »
If the enemy can’t get to watercraft, have them move out of range then. Backing away if possible. Standing on the shore getting pelted with missiles is the dumbest possible thing.

Brygun

« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2020, 11:22:54 PM »
While I was frustrated by the lame robber pursuing, I recall that one issue was the skiing wasn't easy to do. The robbers, often a local culture, would have skiis too.

The Nerjpez I debate personally on them using skiis as a cultural difference though they might use something

I think though there is a question that is appears they might have ZERO consequences. Thats just an opinion based on recent observations. They should/could be suffering fatigue and certainly not have a major advantage over a competent character let alone a master at their skill.


Sami

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« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2021, 06:11:59 PM »
Be it walking or running in snow or swimming, paddling on raft, enable exactly same movement for NPCs as character deals with.

No more skiless robbers running in waist deep snow to catch up to grandmaster skier.
No more character peppering Njerpez from watercraft without chance of the hostile to swim over and climb or capsize the vessel.
No more NPCs waltzing through traps. Have them at least kick the trap 1st to trigger them.

Skiing NPCs and snow penalty for NPCs has been suggested and talked many times before and it would be justified, good and reasonable, and surely to-do when time allows.
From coder's point of view, the magical "allow" button doesn't exists, and many NPC movement related enchancements need to be approached as separate and often surprisingly complex additions.
NPCs always triggering the traps they can avoid ie. walk past them has been discussed before and the conclusion is and still remains that it's not the best approach but would be sometimes only annoying.
- Sami | UnReal World creator

Homocommando

« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2023, 01:40:36 AM »
but the person on the craft should have a big fighting advantage from being higher
How is that an advantage? It only makes it hard to attack the enemy (he is further away from your shoulder, increasing the reach you need to hit him), and maybe even impossible to attack his lower body, so he wouldn't have to defend there, while he can easily attack your legs (and defending against attacks from below would have probably been very awkward).

PALU

« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2023, 09:44:04 AM »
Having the higher ground in a dueling situation is generally considered advantageous. While the lower ground combatant may have an easier time striking the legs, the higher ground combatant have a reach advantage towards the opponents head, which is a more vital body part.
The kind of weapon used matters, of course: a dagger would be awkward to use, while a spear would reach the lower ground opponent easily.
In the case of a craft, the person on board the craft can also step back and concentrate on attacking during the swimmer's attempt to climb onboard the craft and to push the swimmer back into the water, waiting for the swimmer to tire.

Homocommando

« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2023, 03:41:44 AM »
Having the higher ground in a dueling situation is generally considered advantageous.
By whom? Source? (I hope the source is not Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight 🤣)

While the lower ground combatant may have an easier time striking the legs, the higher ground combatant have a reach advantage towards the opponents head
We are talking about standing on a raft vs floating in water. That's a massive height difference, the head of the lower fighter would be literally at the height of his opponents ankles. If the ground height difference was slight, like 20cm, then yeah, you would need less reach to attack head, but only slightly. And lower body attacks would still be problematic, just to a lower degree, so even at low height differences, it's probably not worth it.

which is a more vital body part
Doesn't matter if your opponent is cutting through your knees while you can't hit him at all.
The one who can hit from farther away is at an advantage, even if his opponent can hit stronger.
(Also head was usually much better armoured than legs.)

The kind of weapon used matters, of course: a dagger would be awkward to use, while a spear would reach the lower ground opponent easily.
But your opponents spear would reach your legs much easier.

In the case of a craft, the person on board the craft can also step back and concentrate on attacking during the swimmer's attempt to climb onboard the craft and to push the swimmer back into the water, waiting for the swimmer to tire.
I only quoted the "being higher" part, and that's the only thing I am referring to. I absolutely agree that attacking someone on a raft by swimming to it is extremely stupid, and you are at a major disadvantage due to worse mobility, lack of footing, and having to constantly swim. It's only the height part that I disagree with.

Adamsor

« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2023, 07:29:50 PM »
It's not hard to imagine strikes going downwards have more impact than those going upwards, considering existence of the gravity. Upwards attacks also should be considered more tiring. Might be less visible for stab attacks while for slashes it will be clear, though all the small things make a difference.

Brygun

« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2023, 10:15:50 AM »
Having the higher ground in a dueling situation is generally considered advantageous.
By whom? Source? (I hope the source is not Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight 🤣)

By my bruises given and received. Some of us, like myself, have been re-enactors doing high impact sports... like armored combat and I don't mean tanks.

Also...

Battle of Hastings... the Saxons were all fine until they came off the high ground. The fate of Angleland was all down hill from there. yuk yuk yuk.

ineedcords

« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2023, 07:25:21 PM »
Having the higher ground in a dueling situation is generally considered advantageous.
By whom? Source? (I hope the source is not Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight 🤣)

It is probably mentioned by many pre-gunpowder era warfare texts. There is also a detailed Wikipedia article on this matter, here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_ground
This could be a good day to utilize your squirrels hides.

Brygun

« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2023, 10:11:26 AM »
Id also like a return to the 1 enemy per tile, it meant using tactics and building defenses mattered. A while back the reports of Nerjpez villages slaughtered from a doorway led allowing multiple in a tile... which ruined much of defending one's own home or finding narrow terrain in a wilderness fight.

Maybe make a game difficulty toggle for hardcore/normal fighting modes.

Brygun

« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2023, 09:26:40 AM »
Going to add an example from Calle, which might be the end of his tale.

Winter with thigh or waist deep snow but with a crust appraoched a Nerjpez camp

Saw one alone who shouted, so okay might get help,

Shoot that one dead in 3 arrows, so a very short combat

2 more are coming and 2 more behind that

Attempted several times to escape:

1) "run" mode away fails as PC tires out but the Nerjpez don't seem to. They had to cross the warcamp area just to get where the PC started plus the PC's distance ran. They always catch up and start getting back hits.

2) ski mode away fails... they still catch up using running in deep crusted snow faster than a PC with 100% ski skill can go.

>_<


Brygun

« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2023, 09:36:32 AM »
A solution that might be easier to implement to look at what their moving on and add fatigue penalties. That is roughly the same as the PC.

As to having skis on/off maybe if its winter time issue higher-wealth opponents "ski" and "ski stick"....  or not. Since its hard to fight with a ski stick.

>>>

Sample logic:



= If encounter spawns in snow*
== then % chance to give them ski gear, higher chance for "wealthy" like those with lamellar cuirass
== if getting ski gear issue skis (worn) and ski stick
* maybe a depth related factor like if it is calf deep or deeper higher chance
=== If NPC is spawns indoors (inside a building or kota)
=== chance to delete ski gear (they weren;t wearing at time of attack)

= if no ski gear and AI moves
== then getting fatigue as PC does

= if wanting to use a bow and arrow
== equip bow and arrows storing ski stick

= if ski gear and wanting to melee* and more than 6 tiles away
== if not holding ski stick
=== then equip ski stick
== if holding ski stick
=== move as a ski (with an assumed high ski skill)