Topic: Winter hides  (Read 1059 times)


JP_Finn

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« on: April 13, 2020, 05:55:28 PM »
The winter hides are at the moment strictly bound to the UnReal calendar. Come Winter, animals tend to puff up before cold hits and most every year the first frost and snowfall do align pretty nicely with the Winter Season and beginning of Dirt month.

But come Swidden and beginning of Summer, with snow still knee/thigh/waist high, animals suddenly drop their winter fur.
It'd be bit more appropriate if the animals shed their warm winter fur after the cold/freezing season has passed.
i.e. animals should retain their winter fur until ice is mostly or fully gone (Swidden to Fallow);  according to weather, not calendar.

jonottawa

« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2020, 10:10:12 PM »
If ONLY they kept their winter furs until Swidden.

Winter furs disappear at the beginning of Soil month.

That being said, I don't feel strongly about changing it. From a gameplay perspective, I like that it's a fairly short window. And I'm not a biologist, but maybe animals start shedding while it's still fairly cold and their pelts would be less thick/luxurious than in the dead of winter.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 11:00:07 PM by jonottawa »

Sami

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« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2020, 09:48:30 PM »
Sunlight (= calendar) is the triggering factor for fur changes for many animals. Hares and squirrels and artic foxes for example. It's far more safer for animals make these changes based on sunlight (which is a good average indication about approaching season) than to start adjusting the furs based on temperature. I don't know if eg. elks do it differently - based on temperature - but if someboby could find a scientific online arcticle about actual roles of sunlight and temperature in fur changes (of many different species) we could then see about tweaking things.



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Night

« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2020, 01:02:10 AM »
The cue for the elk to change coats is day length. Starting in March as days get longer, the old winter coat starts dropping off. Their summer coat is short, glossy, and generally much more uniform in color than the winter coat. All the hair of the summer coat is the same length. As the days get shorter in September, the longer, thicker winter coat starts growing out. The winter coat consists of two layers - a longer coat of guard hairs protects the short thick undercoat. By winter both male and female elk have thick, dark manes covering their necks, and long, light tan coats over the rest of their bodies.

The fur of mammals has many uses: protection, sensory purposes, waterproofing, and camouflaging, with the primary usage being thermoregulation.[2] The types of hair include definitive, which may be shed after reaching a certain length;

...

Hair length is negligible in thermoregulation, as some tropical mammals, such as sloths, have the same fur length as some arctic mammals but with less insulation; and, conversely, other tropical mammals with short hair have the same insulating value as arctic mammals. The denseness of fur can increase an animal's insulation value, and arctic mammals especially have dense fur; for example, the musk ox has guard hairs measuring 30 cm (12 in) as well as a dense underfur, which forms an airtight coat, allowing them to survive in temperatures of −40 °C (−40 °F).[3]:162–163 Some desert mammals, such as camels, use dense fur to prevent solar heat from reaching their skin, allowing the animal to stay cool; a camel's fur may reach 70 °C (158 °F) in the summer, but the skin stays at 40 °C (104 °F).[3]:188 Aquatic mammals, conversely, trap air in their fur to conserve heat by keeping the skin dry.[3]

Cats moult fur around spring-summer time to get rid of their "winter coat". Cats have thicker fur during the colder winter months to keep them warm, then around spring and summer they shed some of their fur to get a thinner coat for the warmer summer months. Some cats need brushing during moulting, since dead hairs can get trapped in the cat's fur.

...

Moulting or shedding in canids, as in all mammals,[1] is due to fluctuations in the amount of melatonin secreted by their pineal gland in response to seasonal sunlight variations rather than temperature variations. This seasonality in moulting is most preserved in Arctic breeds of dogs which shed twice each year whereas most other breeds moult once each year.

Abstract
Many species express endogenous cycles in physiology and behavior that allow anticipation of the seasons. The anatomical and cellular bases of these circannual rhythms have not been defined. Here, we provide strong evidence using an in vivo Soay sheep model that the circannual regulation of prolactin secretion, and its associated biology, derive from a pituitary-based timing mechanism. Circannual rhythm generation is seen as the product of the interaction between melatonin-regulated timer cells and adjacent prolactin-secreting cells, which together function as an intrapituitary “pacemaker-slave” timer system. These new insights open the way for a molecular analysis of long-term timing mechanisms.

After reading through these, I think fur is regulated by light levels more so than temperature, as the purpose of fur in a lot of animals seems to be temperature regulation, which would imply seasonal changes would be the first factor in hair regulation and temperature there after, fine tuning for more immediate short-term temperature regulation (you see this with house pets a lot when they move into and out of the house with varying temperatures between the outdoors and your home).

Also, it appears there are several different layers:

Thermoregulation is the principal function of the down hair, which insulates a layer of dry air next to the skin.

...

The proximal part of the awn hair assists in thermoregulation (like the down hair), whereas the distal part can shed water (like the guard hair).

...

Guard hair repels water and blocks sunlight, protecting the undercoat and skin in wet or aquatic habitats, and from the sun's ultraviolet radiation. Guard hairs can also reduce the severity of cuts or scratches to the skin.

Now we can impress our friends with our knowledge of hair.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 01:37:04 AM by Night »
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Sami

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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2020, 01:14:29 PM »
Quote
After reading through these, I think fur is regulated by light levels more so than temperature,.

Thanks for digging this all up, Night. I'm especially happy that elks were mentioned.
I'm also even more convinced there's nothing to-do in regards to the suggestion.

Quote
Now we can impress our friends with our knowledge of hair.

And that's so great in developing and playing detailed heavy simulation game. We learn new things if we stay curious and pay attention.
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JP_Finn

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« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2020, 04:06:57 AM »
Ok. If that’s what Wikipedia says.

Badger(mäyrä), pine-marten(näätä) have full winter hide still in the end of legal hunting season to end of March. And raccoon dog(supikoira) start to lose their winter fur around mid-April.

Colder winters like ‘86-‘87 the furs on hare and foxes were thicker than on mild winters, say ‘99-‘00

But sure, let’s go with daylight. With that note, do the fur bearer breeders/fur farmers cover their production cages from light or not? (No, they’re not covered from natural light...)

* JP_Finn shrug shoulders
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 07:00:50 AM by JP_Finn »

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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2020, 06:41:45 PM »
Ok. If that’s what Wikipedia says.

Badger(mäyrä), pine-marten(näätä) have full winter hide still in the end of legal hunting season to end of March. And raccoon dog(supikoira) start to lose their winter fur around mid-April.

But doesn't this sentence also speak of rather fixed calendar dates and months rather than temperature?

Quote
Colder winters like ‘86-‘87 the furs on hare and foxes were thicker than on mild winters, say ‘99-‘00

Naturally.

But well, articles and quotes can be dropped here at will of the actual fur change mechanism.

Just today it was snowing, and the lake is still on ice, and I had to yield brown a hare on the road while driving a car. Very few spots of white were still seen.

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Night

« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2020, 03:13:42 AM »
Shorter daylight hours help to trigger responses of the “master gland” of the body, the hypothalamus, to change behavior or appearance to prepare for the cold. Some animals will increase their food intake to build up fat reserves, allowing them to survive with a decreased food supply. Other animals, such as beavers or red squirrels, create a food cache, meaning they collect extra food when it’s available, store it and then have a supply for the winter

The hypothalamus is responsible for the regulation of certain metabolic processes and other activities of the autonomic nervous system. It synthesizes and secretes certain neurohormones, called releasing hormones or hypothalamic hormones, and these in turn stimulate or inhibit the secretion of hormones from the pituitary gland. The hypothalamus controls body temperature, hunger, important aspects of parenting and attachment behaviours, thirst,[2] fatigue, sleep, and circadian rhythms.[3]

Daylength, and thus knowledge of the season of the year, is vital to many animals. A number of biological and behavioural changes are dependent on this knowledge. Together with temperature changes, photoperiod provokes changes in the color of fur and feathers, migration, entry into hibernation, sexual behaviour, and even the resizing of sexual organs.

...

In mammals, daylength is registered in the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), which is informed by retinal light-sensitive ganglion cells, which are not involved in vision. The information travels through the retinohypothalamic tract (RHT). Some mammals are highly seasonal, while humans' seasonality is largely believed to be evolutionary baggage.[20][relevant? – discuss]


Still leaning towards light controlling growth with temperature being a secondary factor to fine tune that mechanism.

Also, modern fur farms seem to have structures used to house the animals. How that impacts fur production i have no idea, but you can lookup mink farming for more details on modern fur production, on my phone atm so Im not investigating too much right now.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 03:30:25 AM by Night »
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JP_Finn

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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2020, 03:25:45 AM »

Daylength, and thus knowledge of the season of the year, is vital to many animals. A number of biological and behavioral changes are dependent on this knowledge. Together with temperature changes, photoperiod provokes changes in the color of fur and feathers, migration, entry into hibernation, sexual behaviour, and even the resizing of sexual organs.

At the moment, temperature doesn't affect Drying or animals' winter pelts. While IMO temperature really should play bigger part. As should sweating then going out/away from in below freezing temperatures.

I believe wet clothing and firewood et cetera are in dev plans. Should go with temperatures too. i.e. plunging in summer lake with clothes on, then working on fields or tree cutting, should keep character going on longer. And wet clothes in winter, well, not going so long.

Night

« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2020, 03:35:20 AM »

Daylength, and thus knowledge of the season of the year, is vital to many animals. A number of biological and behavioral changes are dependent on this knowledge. Together with temperature changes, photoperiod provokes changes in the color of fur and feathers, migration, entry into hibernation, sexual behaviour, and even the resizing of sexual organs.

At the moment, temperature doesn't affect Drying or animals' winter pelts. While IMO temperature really should play bigger part. As should sweating then going out/away from in below freezing temperatures.

I believe wet clothing and firewood et cetera are in dev plans. Should go with temperatures too. i.e. plunging in summer lake with clothes on, then working on fields or tree cutting, should keep character going on longer. And wet clothes in winter, well, not going so long.

Good points, lots of biological factors and their implementations could add to the realism.

Maybe some sort of "wet" indicator

Also, humidity would be another variable along with temperature if you want to get the most bang for your buck.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 03:54:08 AM by Night »
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JP_Finn

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« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2020, 04:46:01 AM »


But doesn't this sentence also speak of rather fixed calendar dates and months rather than temperature?
Given legal season ends on March 31st for them, I could not hunt them after, even if weather was cold/snowy

Quote
Just today it was snowing, and the lake is still on ice, and I had to yield brown a hare on the road while driving a car. Very few spots of white were still seen.

But this winter was awfully mild in Finland, at least according to my skype calls with mom. Were the hares fully white at all or splotchy at best?

Sami

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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2020, 01:31:29 PM »
Just a quick note, I've stopped following this thread. More important things to-do.
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anything