Topic: Problems with rituals  (Read 1441 times)


Tinker

« on: April 11, 2020, 11:22:22 AM »
I am having problems with the whole F4 thing, this is not a game problem but a problem with my philosophy of life.

My view is you are born, you stuggle in various ways to live then you die, no afterlife, rebirth, gods or such like. I have difficulty with suspension of disbelief in a game that is supposed to emulate life. I can cope with magic and supernatural beasts in fantasy games as they are not like life at all. I can also accept that so called 'primitive' races would invent explanations of a spiritual nature to explain things the do not understand, such rituals etc. may appear to work to them but would of course not do anything. At best they may make the person better at a task because they think some spirit is helping them though in fact any benefit is their better concentration or just luck.

I have forced myself to try playing using the rituals I know and have played the same character without using rituals at all, there seems to be very little difference, at least in 6 months of playing. The main difference is I feel better about my character when I play without using rituals, especially with some of the illogical ones.

My question is basically, is it possible to play long term with using rituals? Or does it get more complicated with years of playing while ignoring the F4 button?

StefanPravda

« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2020, 12:05:40 PM »
To be honest, the rituals seem lackluster to me. I use the ones related to hunting and fishing, donating pieces regularly, but just because I can afford it, I don't really care about what happens and how the forest looks at me :D And I ignore the rest of them, bar quests, because they don't offer to me anything worthy.

They could be made to offer something more palpable. A spiritual person could make use of some spiritual bonuses. I mean if you do have faith in something, and a strong belief pushes you forward, you will be better motivated, more focused. It's not necessarily a supernatural thing.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 12:09:21 PM by StefanPravda »

jonottawa

« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2020, 07:29:59 PM »
I have no problem role-playing a character who believes in supernatural forces that I don't personally believe in. I sacrifice cuts regularly. I hang up the bear skull. It's a way of paying respect and expressing gratitude, if nothing else.

My only problem with rituals would be the extent to which they're overpowered or near-mandatory, and I don't think that's a big issue.

JP_Finn

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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2020, 08:49:00 PM »
Only big difference when omitting Rituals/Spells seems to be spawning of further (large) game.
I sacrifice for a good week after killing deer. So far 9 deer (I keep their antlers) Now I have 3 moose bumping in to my yard. I just throws turnips at them though.

JEB Davis

« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2020, 10:19:38 PM »
I don't think ignoring the F4 rituals would cause many problems playing the game long-term.
For me, doing so would be against the flavor of the game, but... to each their own. Please enjoy it the way you prefer.

Tinker

« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2020, 10:40:28 AM »
It seems from the replies that I can play as a real person in an unreal world with no major problems, thanks for the replies.

Many of the rituals seem illogical, why would sheep running over a fishing net be good?I would suggest it would damage the net and make it worse. I have tried several times throwing my fishing rod into the sea, which seems the wrong thing to do, but I usually get a message that I missed, even though it is there floating in the sea. Further on fishing, I cannot make any sense out of the throw the first fish caught back after the beginning of open water season. When is open water season, I usually live by the sea and fish all winter, if I catch 6 or 7 fish at a time which one was first?  One the one occasion I tried the ritual the fish floated at sea for weeks before I rafted out to it and picked it up, still fresh.

At least I know that most people think I should have no problems playing my way so I will persist.

PALU

« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2020, 02:45:49 PM »
The rituals are based on actual folk lore superstition, i.e. what people have actually thought worked, which most people nowadays write that off as pure superstition (which doesn't stop a large portion of those same people from engaging in superstition, rituals, and omens when it comes to gambling their money away...).

The "open water" season is when the ice is gone, presumably when you can use a boat to get out onto the water without smashing ice at the places that get ice. The corresponding ritual has the fish sink when "successful", and I your fish was fresh because the (air) temperature was below freezing.

JEB Davis

« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2020, 04:43:41 PM »
...snip...
Many of the rituals seem illogical, why would sheep running over a fishing net be good?I would suggest it would damage the net and make it worse. I have tried several times throwing my fishing rod into the sea, which seems the wrong thing to do, ... snip...
Just a thought... you never know, but this might be an opportunity to do some investigation on your own into other cultures and the beliefs they might have that don't seem logical. It's possible you might find something interesting that will add an appreciation of an illogical thing or two to your repetoir.  I look back and remember some of those times in my life (I'm on the older side of the hill now) and see that they were good for me and helped me become who I am now, which is better than I was before.  For me, it turns out that many illogical things can even be part of the spice of life, take women for instance!  (No insult intended to the female audience, as males likely seem that way for females as well, I'll readily admit.)

Labtop 215

« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2020, 08:07:46 PM »
I've noticed that if you don't sacrifice, hunting gets harder after a while as less game will spawn.  Also if you really want to see rituals at work, get like 20 nets and really fish out a lake or a river.  If you don't sacrifice you'll get messages that the waters feel hostile towards you or scary.  This happens eventually anyway, but not as quickly if you sacrifice small, uncooked fish every day.

You also shake off the upset of the forest if you sleep in a shelter instead of a house or a cave.

Also, I think the point of rituals is that they are supposed to encourage superstitious behaviour.  Essentially, superstitious behaviour comes from actions with unknown results followed by positive results that may or may not be related to the action you just took.  It's intentional for the most part.  Some actions will end up being obvious if you've done them correctly.  So for instance, pushing a bear skull from a bear you killed recently onto a lone pine tree will read "You gracefully hang the bear skull." instead of you push the object somewhere.

Tom H

« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2020, 12:01:57 AM »
Playing as a primitive living as far back as 3200 years ago... That's what we're doing. The fact is, our characters probably would be considered heretics back then for our failure to consult the Gods on virtually every decision or action. The game is very liberal in not requiring many secular activities.

It is anecdotal, of course, but my experience leads me to expect a smoother passage through the difficulties of the game solely by attending to the sacrifices 'religiously'. I've received actual good intelligence regarding game whereabouts from spirits that held me in good standing. I'm not sure how the game would differ at all if the spirits were unhappy with my characters.

Regarding the various hunting and trapping enhancements that my npc peers offer me from time to time, in the guise of 'the best way', I could not vouch for any of them. I've never felt that my traps caught more foxes or found that a lynx hunt required a feather. Perhaps it makes more of a difference when those skills are relatively low? At any rate, in the game experience it is usually not possible to quantify the effect of the spirits unless one is actually entertaining the spirit's presence.

The fact is if you hunt/trap the animals you see, where you saw them, as in from a distance on the strategic map, the odds favor your success. Otoh, if you simply drop traps randomly, or just tramp the tactical map looking for tracks to follow, the hunting/trapping is probably going to consume time and materials and deliver less success. However, if a deer, elk, or rabbit happen to wander near you after you appease them with offerings or attendance, who's to say it wasn't the spirits favoring you?

For that matter, what does constitute the anger of the spirits? Sometimes the forest seems frightening, sometimes I'm awakened by strange noises. Are the spirits roused against me? Because I never chop my own foot with an axe or fall through deep ice as a consequence. It's possible that the 'activity' of spirits may be nothing at all in effect, just a factor in role playing your character.

PALU

« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2020, 12:24:24 AM »
You've got the timing wrong, Tom H. The UrW timeline is approximately 800-1200 AD.

Tom H

« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2020, 03:11:19 AM »
You've got the timing wrong, Tom H. The UrW timeline is approximately 800-1200 AD.

Well, it's said to be an 'Iron Age' game. I am quite willing to allow the developers all the latitude they desire in describing their game... and happily accept your correction.  ;D

"https://www.history.com/topics/pre-history/iron-age
The Iron Age was a period in human history that started between 1200 B.C. and 600 B.C., depending on the region, and followed the Stone Age and Bronze Age. "

JEB Davis

« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2020, 04:11:25 AM »
Probably due to its isolated location, in Finland the Iron Age happened much later. 
IIRC that was mentioned by Sami or Erkka at some dim time in the past, likely near the end of the Iron Age  ;)

PALU

« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2020, 09:34:52 AM »
Probably due to its isolated location, in Finland the Iron Age happened much later. 
IIRC that was mentioned by Sami or Erkka at some dim time in the past, likely near the end of the Iron Age  ;)
Yes, Scandinavians were very backwards at the time, and the Finns even more so. It was a backwater of a backwater at the edge of the "known" world. Some parts of the world took longer than others to leave the Iron Age behind.

Tinker

« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2020, 10:50:32 AM »
My point was that just because some people believe something to be it does not make it true. The egyptians had to perform a ritual every evening to get the sun to return the next morning. They believed the sun returned because of their ritual, we of course, know better, but they probably felt good about their influence with Ra and possibly this made their life feel better.

I have studied comparative religion and superstition for about 30 years, the main conclusion I have reached is that most people, throughout history and alive now, are to stupid to understand the realities of life and death and fill their minds spiritual nonsense so they can cope. Being over 70 now I am quite looking forward to the end although I am quite interested in the current mindless panic worldwide, hopefully 7 billion will die and thus save the planet, though the survivors will probably all have invented rituals that they swear saved then.

As I said I will play without rituals and see if I can get a character to outlast me.

 

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