Topic: "You don't skin people!" - But I want to!  (Read 984 times)


cheesealmighty

« on: January 07, 2019, 12:55:17 PM »
Yet, looking at how hideworking works and the modding wiki, I couldn't exactly figure out how. At least, there doesn't seem to be be an API for it.

I probably could have a workaround using something like:

Code: [Select]
.Human skin. "Animal Hide" /4h/ *HIDEWORKING* %-100% [effort:3] [phys:arms,hands,stance]
{*dead *}          [remove] [ground] [name: %s skin]
{Knife} <Broad Knife>

[WEIGHT:8]
[PRICE:0]


since I don't actually intend to eat the corpse. Or work off a trust system and don't include the [remove] tag. Any ideas on how to improve this?

---

On another note, it is odd to me that in an age where cannibalism was a somewhat common practice, there's isn't much human leatherworking. I thought they let nothing go to waste in that time.

Brygun

« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2019, 07:12:43 PM »
= I'm not sure cannibalism was commonplace in Finland. To my information set cannibalism is extremely rare across the world. Even the rare places cannibalism we attribute to it the act was often a misrepresentation. For instance some cultures would turn their relatives, not enemies, into a meal as a way to keep them in their lives. As well as cultural taboos there is actually toxins that accumulate. Much like marrying a close cousin it seems cannibalism's taboo is based on real necessity.

= Sacrifices of people AFAIK were of the whole person and not a skinned person. However it would be extremely hard to have de-skinned muscle to survive to prove otherwise. Consider that if you were sacrificing a sheep to a god you wouldn't take the wool off first. That would be like cheating the god.

(party pooper hat off)

= Ive not tried to produce "Animal hide" before. I dont know of a modder who has either.

= During initial testing I suggest just doing a /1m/ call while you test. You could use {Rock} '+magic testing fix' as the only ingredient to see if the right base object to appear

= Running test: Make a zip of the character before you test, run the tests, delete the character directoy, unzip the directory to refresh

= No idea if you will get an output that will qualify for the other steps of hideworking

« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 07:15:17 PM by Brygun »

PALU

« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2019, 07:28:52 PM »
As Brygun said, cannibalism as a significant food source doesn't seem to have been common. The two main ritual uses seem to have been to eat (parts of) deceased relatives to retain/absorb their souls for preservation, and to ritually consume especially brave/skilled enemies to gain their power. It can also be noted that some cultures have cleaned the bones of their flesh as a kind of cleansing in preparation of performing funeral rites with the bones, but without actually eating the flesh. I don't believe I've heard of using human skin leather culturally either (it's not uncommon in fiction to have villains that make leather out of their victims' hides, and there may have been historical people who have done it, but not as part of a culture, as far as I know.

In addition to the above, there's also superstitious cannibalism, like certain parts of the current day world where people with albinism are murdered or mutilated to get body parts for ritual/magic uses (and I think this includes consumption, but I'm not sure).

cheesealmighty

« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2019, 08:13:34 PM »
 Hmm. I'm not much of an anthropologist, but my cursory search showed enough research (not the clickbait news articles) to convince me that it existed in a meaningful manner, at least in the prehistoric era. Thus, (probably) iron age Finland.

 But obviously, this wouldn't be an primary food source.  As humans can't exactly be bred and raised. Not to mention it's terrible inefficient to do so. But I'm finding it hard to believe in a cutthroat world, you wouldn't skin and butcher your enemies' corpses after a battle has been won. Hell, the fact that we're discussing it now is a testament to humans' moral relativism.

Signatus

« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2019, 09:54:32 PM »
Hmm. I'm not much of an anthropologist, but my cursory search showed enough research (not the clickbait news articles) to convince me that it existed in a meaningful manner, at least in the prehistoric era. Thus, (probably) iron age Finland.

Are you sure? Because it's kind of the opposite from what I've read. While it did exist, it seems to be a fringe thing or for very specific reasons. I'm talking about cannibalism here.

As for leather, it's also very rare, though there have been stuff made out of humans in the past. There's also a company that makes things (like wallets) out of 100% human leather. You can even donate skin to it. Weird stuff. It's really expensive though. So I doubt that skinning people was something anyone considered, even if consuming someone due to starvation. Maybe a few mad hermits, but that's it. If ever possible in-game it should give you a karma hit to compensate. I could see how it could be used to roleplay wearing the Njerpezit who killed your family as trophies or something.

Keep in mind that being unable to skin humans is stopping people from making a meme out of human child leather caps or something. Maybe.

cheesealmighty

« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2019, 11:12:32 PM »
Few scientific examples:
 - (This one is a bit old for science standards): https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/evan.1360010307
 - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169534703002155
 - https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10816-016-9306-y

Basically, human teeth marks, knife scrapings off the bone.

The disease protein gene paper is a bit disputed one. I could probably comment on that if I go on a reading journey, but... Maybe later.

---

I'm aware of the dull "memefication" of the human leather thing. Rimworld forums are filled with that. And I respect the decision of not including for that reason, to an extend.

Brygun

« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2019, 07:14:04 PM »
First a reminder the original post was also calling for modding help on how to include a food source. A questionable food source to be sure but still a food source.

<party pooper hat off>

Maybe if you set its nutritional values to that of the closest relative pig?

Or have it generate pig cuts named human cuts? Remember to deduct weight for the skeleton, skin and unusable  material.

Likewise you could have the human skin produced as a fairly weak skinned animal. We certainly don't have a bear's toughness. Id suggest using the weakest animal leather or close to it. Weasel maybe? Being physically puny we are not the best building material.

<party pooper hat on>

I remain in the cannabalism is overhyped, like Beyr Gryll's survival shows.

The links provided above refer to the Stone Age 10,000+ years ago not a shamanistic iron using culture like Finland.

There is alot of time for genetic and cultural relevance to develop against cannibalism. After all the people who eat themselves have less people than those who learned to hunt animals and keep their population breeding.

Here on the Great Turtle (north america) the Niiji/First Nations refer to someone who goes cannibal as "Wendigo" and they become shunned, sick and isolated. Hardly qualities assigned to "widespread cannabilsm."


As well as the toxin accumulation issues there is the risk of cysts, holding baby parasites, enjoying the free ride into the new host. In the historic Meditterean several cultures abhored pig meat, some to even the modern day. Pigs are very close to us in meat so if pig to human transfer is a concern imagine it being so much worse if it was human-human.



Saiko Kila

« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2019, 06:44:25 PM »
As well as the toxin accumulation issues there is the risk of cysts, holding baby parasites, enjoying the free ride into the new host. In the historic Meditterean several cultures abhored pig meat, some to even the modern day. Pigs are very close to us in meat so if pig to human transfer is a concern imagine it being so much worse if it was human-human.

The reason some cultures did not eat pigs was specifically one parasite - causing trichinosis - which these cultures (or their ancestors) did not have resistance against (at all, even rudimentary, so this was huge problem). But nowadays they do have resistance, at least as much as others, and this is purely a religious or cultural thing, with no scientific basis at all.

The reason people shouldn't eat people (but not pigs) are both prions and viruses.

Anyway, the OP wanted to skin, not to eat. And skinning (flaying) was very popular in middle ages, as a punishment (both before and after death), but I suppose this could be different in iron age Finland, before Christianity. It was certainly more popular in middle East and Mediterranean area, as well as in Americas, than in Europe proper.