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Re: A few things i am afraid that they could be overlooked in all the euphoria... Good suggestions overall. I have to comment, on behalf of and before Sami has the chance to, that he'd probably like to have these suggestions on separate threads in the future. That way its easier for all of us to keep the discussion focused and have topics that describe the content.

The leather part leads me to think you may have missed this discussion:  https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=5835.0. There was also another I started, about curing...

Very warmly support animals eating. I was going to suggest this too at some point.

On agriculture is nice too, though I rarely farm that much. But auto-pickup all mode would be useful. Also agriculture - it seems to me - to be too secure a living. No extreme weather / disease / pests spoiling crops and causing famine... Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't really tried to live on it.
December 01, 2020, 07:51:24 AM 		1
Re: Field dress/quarter big game Necromancy! I'm so waiting for this.

Field dressing, Most interested in getting:
- that 30% weight reduction (elk bowels weigh a shit-ton, quite literally)
- blood to container (4-8 litres from a reindeer)
- intestine
- technically: new, optional(?) procedure before skinning (I mean one could also just start skinning, get the field dressing done automatically and not take blood or intestine)

Possible additions (one hundredth the importance of above):
- heart (maybe bigger than usual sacrifice "value"?)
- liver

Quartering big game: BIGGIE. Love that.
After some English googling, butchers' vocabulary can be overwhelming. I suggest simply dividing current meat yield into 5 equal parts:
- 4 quarters (4 parts)
- extra cuts of meat (1 part)
- backstrap sinew/tendon (removed after skinning with help of knife and pulling with rope; before cutting the backstrap and ruining it too short)
- this would solve unobvious problems discussed here: https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=5694.0
- technically: 'b'utcher 5 times: each time u get a quarter, last time the rest

Other possibilities (one hundredth the importance of above):
- 2 forequarters (2 parts)
- 2 hindquarters (2 parts)
- head
- back
- flank (or rib slab)
- neck

Each of these could then be cut into the familiar cuts of meat. Each quarter would yield 1 bone after cutting, and ofc the head, a skull. Great immersion value here.

Imagine watching your dog gnawing the frozen elk quarter for days.

Quartering and Packing Game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HOzXjeyrVg
December 01, 2020, 07:20:26 PM 		2
Re: A few things i am afraid that they could be overlooked in all the euphoria...
Quote from: Dr.Hossa on December 01, 2020, 07:34:59 PM
I looked at the leather post of yours, but i dont think its basically the same with my concerns.

Oh I'm sorry. I was staring at this:

Quote from: Dr.Hossa on November 30, 2020, 11:10:47 PM
- leather
Gameplay.
First, the tanning process... de hair first? or first tan and dehair afterwards? i mix it up repeatedly... For newbies, i think it is really confusing. The reason is, when you dehair first, you dont get to see that information in middle-steps of the tanning process.(its just a tanning skin) So if you are unsure if you dehaired the skin(For example, because you are tanning multiple stuff and also furs of the same species) you have to dehair it again(which takes many days (10+) for big hides, to be sure it becomes leather. Otherwise you dont know the outcome. oh, ofcourse you must waste tanning material like fat or bark again.
For new players, who read that here: clean, dehair, tan. Little workaround: chose different sites for leather tanning than for your fur tanning.

My leather post was, I admit, a little comprehensive. But there was this conclusion:

Quote from: Buoidda on October 23, 2020, 12:03:21 PM
My reasoning apart from what already been said:
a) one could instantly recognize which animal skins become leather and which fur
b) currently one cannot distinguish a dehaired "tanning elk skin" and a fur bearing "tanning elk skin" before the whole tanning process is finished

Now I'll answer the other part:

Quote from: Dr.Hossa on November 30, 2020, 11:10:47 PM
Second, give it an actual use? leather clothing seems to be somewhat extremely underpowered. i think it should at least be a good trade between protection and weight penalty especially on warm days. At the time, it even takes a lot more work to aquire it, yet being inferior in all aspects to fur(ignoring the little point dmg advantage).
Even a very strong character will not chose the big penalty of the additional weight that comes with the little protection.
Everyone who has worn leather IRL knows that it is very comfortable, even feeling like a second skin which does not hinder movement much. at least regarding trousers, shoes and shirts. The actual "armour" items should be clumsier and heavier, but also with better protection(speaking of the cuirass, armguards and shinguards)
Perhaps resemble that aspect by reducing the weight?

and, what happened to the boots??...

I agree that leather is too encumbering compared to fur. And if one aims to make protective leather pieces, certainly they could be made harder and thicker and even better than 'just' fur. And heavier. It's just the perceived anachronism that can be in the way.

Quote from: Dr.Hossa on December 01, 2020, 07:34:59 PM
Of course i would like to have tanning overhauled as you suggested to make it more realistic. But i think perhaps(?) this time i speak on behalf of sami when i say that this can wait... Sure i can understand its more of an important thing for you if  you do things like that IRL.

I'm glad you like them! Let me explain myself a bit, so you hopefully like them even more  :)

Speaking of overhaul, they are mostly aimed to make the game more playable, instead of realistic. I've made two suggestion threads on the subject: on terminology and curing. The terminology thread starter is long, but the suggestions in it are technically very spesific and relatively quickly doable, I believe. (Smoking might need some work, though.)

The curing thread indeed suggests a tanning overhaul for realism, but doesn't require it to reach its main aims:

Quote from: Buoidda on October 24, 2020, 06:16:17 PM
So, getting finally to my suggestion:

1) accept cured hides for kota covers and "sleeping in furs"
2) shorten curing times to max overnight or allow picking up of skins with curing still continuing

The 'overhaul' was this:
Quote from: Buoidda on October 24, 2020, 06:16:17 PM
3) complicate tanning to make it more realistic and to encourage curing to be used more
4) make cured skins available in villages and for trade - preferably much more commonly than tanned hides. I understand this would affect game balance significantly and prices would need to be adjusted accordingly, with tanning lifting the cost especially of big hides - not so much of the valuable small furs.

You see, I put a great deal of thought in writing suggestions, to make them easily readable and doable from coder's perspective. Numbers are also usually orders of priority in my lists, where applicable. But they are only suggestions, not requests. Something put freely on the table to gather refining feedback and possible support from fellow Unrealists. It's totally up to Sami to decide what to do with it and what are the priorities.

I actually don't even expect it (3+4), but if Sami really is up to actual tanning overhaul, I'm at his service if the time comes.
EDIT: There's actually some ideas in the terminology discussion later on. I had forgotten.  :P

Quote from: Dr.Hossa on December 01, 2020, 07:34:59 PM
But from a technical gameplay perspective i think it works fine, but should at least get the right description while tanning. that is my point.
Curing immediately after skinning would be big gameplay change and smaller change in code, imho. But we all have our priorities   ::)

Quote from: Dr.Hossa on December 01, 2020, 07:34:59 PM
Same with farming. Balance-wise i find it working good, perhaps must be nerfed, but thats not my concern. Mine is just a suggestion to get rid of the most hand-aching keyjockeyings. especially if you sit on a punt, you gotta press shift + g all the time... then chose amount and confirm.
i mean, honestly: i clear a little field of reeds, like 20 patches or so, and my hand hurts. and sometimes after a while i confuse and mix up the keys, because i jockey so fast. and i am not an extreme farmer-player...

Harvesting from a punt? Clever. So I see you need not just auto-pickup where you stand but harvesting too. Like automatically harvesting/picking up instead of moving on a harvestable/pickupable plant/item-mode. Would that work?

Quote from: Dr.Hossa on December 01, 2020, 07:34:59 PM
i mean, in the end, everything you do in URW is much easier than it would be in real life. when i think about it; in a strange way, physical pain is some real-realistic consequence of living a farming lifestyle. hunters and nomads dont have knee problems... unless it's a bear ripping your leg off ;D

Yes I agree. Real life = pain.  ???  ;)
December 02, 2020, 12:00:57 AM 		1
Re: Please make it possible to quickly shorten tying equipment Good idea @JP_Finn. Didn't even cross my mid.  :P

@ineedcords You can mod it yourself by creating diy_ineedcords.txt like below and saving it in the Urw game folder:

Code: [Select]
[SUBMENU_START:tying equipment]

.Short cords. (15) "Cord" [effort:1] [phys:hands,one-armed] *COMMON* [patch:5]  /30/ %50% |-2|
{Cloth} #0.5# [remove] [patchwise]
{Knife}
[NAME:Cord]
[LENGTH:1]
[WEIGHT:0.033]


.Short leather ropes. (15) "Leather rope" [effort:1] [phys:arms,one-armed] *COMMON*  [assist:1] /60/ %50% |-1| [patch:5]
{Leather} #1# [remove] [patchwise]
{Knife}
{Water} #1# [remove] [patchwise]
[NAME:Leather rope]
[LENGTH:1]
[WEIGHT:0.066]

.Short birch-bark ropes. (15) "Birch-bark rope" [effort:1] [phys:arms,one-armed]  [assist:1] *CARPENTRY* /2h/ %30%  |-1| [patch:3]
{Birch-bark strip}   =80=    [remove] [patchwise]
{Knife} <Small knife>                   
{Water} #1# [remove] [patchwise]
[NAME:Birch-bark rope]
[LENGTH:1]
[WEIGHT:0.066]

[SUBMENU_END:tying equipment]

Spoiler: The needed edits highlighted • show

.Short birch-bark rope. (15) "Birch-bark rope" [effort:1] [phys:arms,one-armed]  [assist:1]   *CARPENTRY*      /2h/   %30%  |-1| [patch:3]
{Birch-bark strip}   =80=    [remove] [patchwise]
{Knife} <Small knife>                   
{Water} #1# [remove] [patchwise]
[NAME:Birch-bark rope]
[LENGTH:1]
[WEIGHT:0.066]


Of course there was a typo. Now tested and working. Weights corrected.
December 03, 2020, 11:44:57 AM 		3
Re: Buff up the elks, add swimming and jumping over fences I know I asked to buff them up, but please don't make the head any harder.

Spoiler: Story of a particularly hard-headed elk • show


That sums up to 27 solid hits to the skull with the blunt end of a woodman's axe.  ;D
December 03, 2020, 05:34:58 PM 		2
Re: Punitive island winter challenge Now now @Brygun, ur making me feel akward  ??? Personally I find Nekot's challenge harder to complete, at least strictly by the rules. Though it has much more luck factor involved, imho.

Nekot's "The Challenge":
http://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=901.0

Sure island challenge is tough - until you find large fur bearing game. But then it's fairly simple to use the 'corner them to breathless' tactic or herd them to drown on an island. After that you basically just wait for warm waters or an axe-wielding woodsman to spawn.

In Nekot's challenge you can't do that without encountering them near water. And the added restriction of not being able to zoom out makes accomplishing that really difficult (and frustratingly tedious after a while, unless you get lucky).

HINT: Use Night's magnificent little software to choose starting location: https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=6072.msg16429#msg16429
December 05, 2020, 11:06:52 AM 		1
Re: Additional historically accurate cordage: "Lime Bast Cordage" Well our president is Niinistö as in "Lime(?) Bast Grove"  ;D

If I remember right, all plant fibre cordage on Ötzi was of lime bast
(Page 70 lists tree species useful for bast cordage):
Bortenschlager, Sigmar, Oeggs, Klaus (eds) 2000.
The Iceman and his Natural Environment: Palaeobotanical Results.
https://books.google.fi/books?id=roEsBAAAQBAJ&lpg

also this was interesting:

"In the Mesolithic, cord has been recovered made from lime, elm, juniper, willow and rowan bast...
Historical records include the use of mosses, grasses, heather, lime, birch, hazel, beech, yew, pine and spruce...
The best bast is obtained from young trees cut in early summer,
though collecting it at this time implies a retting process lasting
several weeks, to degrade the soft tissues and separate the bast
from the outer bark. Bast can be processed more quickly in early
spring as the sap is rising, or in winter, in which case the bast can be
separated rapidly over a fire."
Hardy, Karen 2018. "Plant use in the Lower and Middle Palaeolithic: Food, medicine and raw materials"
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.quascirev.2018.04.028

EDIT: Made a separate thread for my basticism: http://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=6094.msg16575#msg16575.
December 06, 2020, 12:06:18 AM 		1
Re: Hill, cliffs and mountains I've been wondering about that too. On mountains you find the occasional birch, but hills seem to be completely bare.

How'bout giving hills/some cliffs a coat of (young/small?) birches?

Searching "tunturikoivikko" (birch fells) gives a clear picture of what I'm envisioning:
https://www.google.com/search?q=tunturikoivikko&sxsrf=ALeKk02fOml0wrH2uS_CpXZAlaZW0FcFuQ:1607285088923&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjYl5zGk7rtAhUEAxAIHTD3A6oQ_AUoAXoECAQQAw&biw=1536&bih=722

Also a cool feature of the currently "opaque" birch would be that you could see through birches when they are leafless and not when they are dressed in leaves. Would also fit my rl experience of birch-woods.
December 06, 2020, 09:12:30 PM 		1
seal-catching and dangers of entangling into a net The proper way to catch seals would be the net, btw. (instead of the heavy deadfall)

...and people, and other swimmers. (insert Devil-smiley here)

A killer for seals, waterfowl and people nowadays too.

EDIT: Btw the 5lbs seems far too little skin for the massive grey seal.
December 07, 2020, 09:21:34 PM 		1
Re: Naming:First Word Tag Please for Modding Please  :D


Here's a more complex suggestion:
https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=5258.msg12281#msg12281

Although just the first word-tag would suffice to me in most cases.
December 08, 2020, 09:28:49 AM 		1
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