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Development => Development News => Topic started by: Sami on May 19, 2020, 06:42:24 PM

Title: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Sami on May 19, 2020, 06:42:24 PM
So it was said earlier - quite a long time earlier actually - that fire mechanics are about to undergo some improvements. Now there's some concrete upcoming features highlight on that as follows. Lots of adjustments have been done and all the fire stuff has become more flexible to allow numerous little features still to follow. Let's see where it goes, but at least these are in already:

- improved: fire mechanics

          Various features have been added to make fire burning, its' warming effect, obtained information and visual appearance more detailed.

          * Burnt-out fire graphics is related to the amount of fire burned at the site. Small fires leave small remains, large fires leave large remains.

          * Remains of fire accumulates over time so sequential fires burned at the site will increase the remains.
The remains will still eventually disappear with few days pause in fire burning.
 
          * embers graphics has been and remains of burnt-out fires will be now glowing red for awhile. For how long the embers will be glowing depends on the amount of fire burned.

          * when looking at burnt-out fire it's now also told if there are glowing or still warm embers. This information gives an idea eg. about how recent a campfire found in the wild might be.

 - added: smoking requires continuous maintaining of fire


          In the previous versions smoking succeeded if the room was heated once, and the process required no further maintenance. Now the heating must be maintained through the whole process.
          It's not critical to maintain an exact temperature but the fireplace in your smoking cabin should be warmed up properly on daily basis. Should you forget it one day it's still possible to compensate by heating it up even more the next day.
          If the heating is completely neglected you will find your smoked foodstuff all spoiled. If the heating has failed only to some extent you may find some of the smoked foods spoiled.

These are upcoming features, not yet functional in current version 3.62.
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Privateer on May 19, 2020, 07:32:04 PM

 - added: smoking requires continuous maintaining of fire[/b]

          In the previous versions smoking succeeded if the room was heated once, and the process required no further maintenance. Now the heating must be maintained through the whole process.
          It's not critical to maintain an exact temperature but the fireplace in your smoking cabin should be warmed up properly on daily basis. Should you forget it one day it's still possible to compensate by heating it up even more the next day.
          If the heating is completely neglected you will find your smoked foodstuff all spoiled. If the heating has failed only to some extent you may find some of the smoked foods spoiled.

These are upcoming features, not yet functional in current version 3.62.

 Couple questions.. Like; What?    and Are? and You thinking?  ???  (Intended as humor)

Seriously though, will prepare times be modified? Being home for 16 days straight, to tend the kitchen is way to familiar :D :D
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Sami on May 19, 2020, 08:08:13 PM
Couple questions.. Like; What?    and Are? and You thinking?  ???  (Intended as humor)

Seriously though, will prepare times be modified? Being home for 16 days straight, to tend the kitchen is way to familiar :D :D

No changes to preparation times. You don't have to stay home, just warm up the fireplace on daily basis and mind your business the rest of the day.
Or heat up the room to greater extent every other day and you're good to go as well.

To answer the first questions I guess I was thinking the smoking process has been too easy and gamey for all too long.  :D
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Privateer on May 19, 2020, 08:30:32 PM

To answer the first questions I guess I was thinking the smoking process has been too easy and gamey for all too long.  :D

 I think this will be a wonderful mental stressor 'tension' addition. Fish farm tries to accomplish something similar with repeating task(s) and loss / spoilage as the risk.

 I look forward to all your additions :D
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: JP_Finn on May 19, 2020, 10:41:01 PM
Awesome news with fire mechanics improvement! Will hot embers of campfire/bonfire count as heated fireplace for cooking stews?

Re: smoking, is daily burnt minimum fire enough? 16 branches or 4 firewood as that heats up the fireplace? Or do we need to start burning slender trunks or blocks now? Little hint would be appreciated!

Will Kota be considered heated room with fire/embers now?
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Dungeon Smash on May 19, 2020, 11:51:40 PM
Wow, this is amazing!

One more question... If we leave meats to smoke in a village, will it be assumed that villagers will continue to periodically light the fire?  Is the game able to track this sort of activity, even if the player is far away?  Or, must the player be continually present to smoke his own meat?
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: JEB Davis on May 20, 2020, 01:58:36 AM
I really like these fire realism changes.

Hopefully you're not *guaranteed* to have villagers maintain the smoking fire. It would be neat if you had to ask first, and pay them an agreed price in goods for them to maintain the smoking fire for you.
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Dark Art on May 20, 2020, 08:50:47 AM
I always found the mechanics of smoking meats in the game are bit odd to say the least, but since its been like this for a very long time, I guess I got used to this and never mentioned it. But now... Lets be honest here - if we want to do anything even remotely resembling proper smoking - this will not do. I guess the game is trying to simulate cold smoking, but as far as I know this method will not work with raw meat. In fact, it will not work so badly that if you'd try it, its almost certainly will lead to mid-level food poisoning at best and the brave food experimentator will need proper medical assistance. Sami, since you are taking a second look at this, maybe it would be a worthwhile effort to add a proper smoker building? Cold smoking does not need lots of heat, but it needs constant smoke source - aside from taste, it serves as natural anti-bacterial preserver. Fire source is not needed as such, as long as there are at least some embers under some moist wood shavings - its perfectly fine. So the smoke house can use a special fireplace with much longer burning fires (literally for days) that give almost no heat and cant be used for cooking or heating up.

I know its quite a step and probably would need quite a bit of work, but maybe its something to concider since this will give yet another long-ish term goal to look for.

Another thing I keep hoping for is cheese. We got milk, we got salt, rennet we can get from any cow's or deer's corpse, so the next very logical thing to have is cheese. Of course milk spoilage will need to be added, but come on man! Cheese is a very staple of the olden days. Its not that hard to make (just time consuming), the ingredients are right there, so why not have it?
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Tinker on May 20, 2020, 10:27:49 AM
Cold smoking. There are a few requirements, fist the temperature needs to be below about 30 for the whole process, meat should be cured or salted for a couple of days first. Meat is then hung in a cold smokehouse and smoke is fed into it for 8 to 16 hours, the meat is then left for a month to completely dry.

Hot smoking. Here the temperature needs to be about 70 for the whole process but the process only takes about 16 hours. Hot smoked meat is usually eaten fresh from the smokers as the process does not do much to prolong preservation.

Warm smoking. As the name implies it is somewhere between hot and cold but for preservation the meat needs to be cured first.
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Erkka on May 20, 2020, 11:12:08 AM
Quote
Cold smoking. There are a few requirements, fist the temperature needs to be below about 30 for the whole process, meat should be cured or salted for a couple of days first. Meat is then hung in a cold smokehouse and smoke is fed into it for 8 to 16 hours, the meat is then left for a month to completely dry.

It is a long time since we checked real-life references for the smoking mechanics. But as far as I can remember, it is namely the cold smoking process we are simulating in the game. So, the fire is not needed to generate heat, but mostly to generate smoke - and to keep the air circulating to boost the drying process. I can't remember our sources any more, but I do recall that the smoking process simulation was based on a few articles about primitive cold smoking methods, and Sami adapted a version which was possible to implement with the game mechanics.

But, of course, for the sake of realism it would be perfection have different kinds of smoking processes available. Just like we could use different kind of buildings, like something in between a shelter and a log cabin. I mean, I remember that historically for cold smoking people have used constructions with a fire box dug into soil, some 15 meters of underground flue to cool down the smoke, and then a small wooden smoking box at the top end of the flue. Additions, additions, there would be that many additions to buildings, cooking processes and all. And now we have some fire handling improvements, good! More improvement in the future, I'd guess  :)
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Dark Art on May 20, 2020, 07:38:42 PM
You dont really need anything complicated like a separate building or a deep hole. It would be a nice touch and something to look forward to in later game, but you dont NEED it. I use two metal barrels (one for smoke source and another one for items to be smoked) connected with a pipe and a small fan to speed things up and it works just fine. I guess even a wooden barrels, or two not very deep pits covered with a few planks and earth and connected with a leather sleeve would work - there isnt much heat, just lots of smoke.

I know its all not really necessary for the game, but it would be a very nice to add a bit more realism and provide more later game things to look forward to.
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: JP_Finn on May 20, 2020, 07:56:44 PM
That 3-4 days is "hot curing" smoking which is far more recent method than what was in use at the time of the game. I dearly wouldn't count on preservation of few months with that, unless it dried up to "beef jerky" fashion.

What we refer to, is explained by Ilmar Talve in "Finnish Folk Culture" simply as:
"The meat was smoked in the sauna, to begin with at a low temperature for 1-2 weeks ('cold-curing'), after which it was kept at a high temperature for 2-3 days to make sure it war properly done."

I've not tried that method, but drying first and then hot smoking, does give good flavor on jerky. Rather than using liquid smoke on the jerky-marinade. Drying in 145F or 63C for 8h cures thin cut and 36h marinated beef or venison. The strips stay good in pantry for at least 5 months. Both in ziploc bags and wrapped in paper towel and wrapped in cotton towel.
Just need to be sure to trim any thick fat deposits, as they could contain moisture 'pocket' and cause the strip of meat to mould. Not that 63C is warm enough for a proper sauna bath.

There's also option to use smoking teepee, instead of parachute, I'd reckon cavemen and folks since could've used animals hides.
(http://preparednessadvice.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/smoking-meat-military1.jpg)
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Dark Art on May 20, 2020, 08:29:01 PM
There's also option to use smoking teepee, instead of parachute, I'd reckon cavemen and folks since could've used animals hides.
(http://preparednessadvice.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/smoking-meat-military1.jpg)

Stuff like this is exactly what we need (IMHO of course). Nothing complicated, historically accurate and definitely flavour adding. Just gotta make sure there is room for cheese. Gotta have, just GOTTA HAVE smoked cheese man!
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Dungeon Smash on May 21, 2020, 08:05:50 PM
I've used tarp smokers before in the past and they work great.  Not hard at all to set up, and the jerky comes out great.  As long you smoke it thoroughly, it really doesn't need to be eaten straight out of the smoker either.  It will basically be regular jerky such as you would buy in the store.  It will keep for several days, probably longer in dry conditions. 

I was always sort of surprised you couldn't do this in the game.  You have to build a whole log cabin just to smoke meat, rather than just some animal skins draped over a tripod.  I always figured maybe it was a historical cultural thing, or maybe for gameplay balance.

(https://i.imgur.com/4gYkN12.jpg)
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Dark Art on May 21, 2020, 09:29:05 PM
No man, if the food lasts for only a few days then its "hot smoking". While it would be a very fun addition, in practical terms it wouldnt add much into the game since we dont have a morale system that could be improved with tasty foods (unfortunately). We are talking about "cold smoking". It takes much longer and is more about preserving food and much less about adding flavours.
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Sami on May 21, 2020, 09:53:01 PM
Will hot embers of campfire/bonfire count as heated fireplace for cooking stews?

No. Heated fireplace needs to be a heated fireplace.

Quote
Re: smoking, is daily burnt minimum fire enough? 16 branches or 4 firewood as that heats up the fireplace? Or do we need to start burning slender trunks or blocks now? Little hint would be appreciated!

4 firewoods sounds sounds a bit too low. Common sense can be followed here - you don't warm up a cold fireplace with a fire that lasts just half an hour or so.
And the smoking also requires smoke, which diminished when the fire dies out. I'd say ten firewoods on daily basis would do.

Quote
Will Kota be considered heated room with fire/embers now?

No.
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Sami on May 21, 2020, 09:55:12 PM
One more question... If we leave meats to smoke in a village, will it be assumed that villagers will continue to periodically light the fire?  Is the game able to track this sort of activity, even if the player is far away?  Or, must the player be continually present to smoke his own meat?

We know that villagers will light fires every now and then and they actually might do some of the smoking labour for you. The game tracks this too even if the player is far away, but the thing is that if you're away for a long time you can't be sure if they have kept the fire burning there in sufficient amount or not.
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Sami on May 21, 2020, 10:03:46 PM
I always found the mechanics of smoking meats in the game are bit odd to say the least, but since its been like this for a very long time, I guess I got used to this and never mentioned it. But now... Lets be honest here - if we want to do anything even remotely resembling proper smoking - this will not do. I guess the game is trying to simulate cold smoking, but as far as I know this method will not work with raw meat. In fact, it will not work so badly that if you'd try it, its almost certainly will lead to mid-level food poisoning at best and the brave food experimentator will need proper medical assistance. Sami, since you are taking a second look at this, maybe it would be a worthwhile effort to add a proper smoker building? Cold smoking does not need lots of heat, but it needs constant smoke source - aside from taste, it serves as natural anti-bacterial preserver. Fire source is not needed as such, as long as there are at least some embers under some moist wood shavings - its perfectly fine. So the smoke house can use a special fireplace with much longer burning fires (literally for days) that give almost no heat and cant be used for cooking or heating up.

It's the cold smoking the game simulates, and it works for raw meat/fish too. And yes, the smoke is more important than the high temperatures, but those fireplaces are the very sources of smoke. There are no chimneys, so everytime you burn fire in the fireplace the smoke fills the rooms. So all the houses are "smoke houses" to begin with and there's no need for special fireplace or special building. It's ancient and traditional way to cold smoke foodstuff in saunas. It would work similarly in regular houses too as the smoke generation is the same with those fireplaces without chimneys.

Actually, when the regular cottages were warmed up it gets (of course) so smoky in there that people rather stay outside for those few hours of active warming up, and then return when most of the smoke has been led out. The fireplace remains nicely warm still. This regular warming up process is yet to be simulated in the game because..well..very few would love it at first. :)
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Dark Art on May 21, 2020, 10:47:46 PM
No chimney, eh? Didnt think  that was the case. Damn, but this must so VERY smoky in those homes. Smoky and very dangerous. Even with modern chimneys carbon monoxide poisoning is still very much a threat and I wonder what was the mortality rate. I am not sure I'd be brave enough to sleep in the building with that kind of fireplace actively burning through the night. But yeah, that would definitely work as a smoke house :) Still, what we have now is simulation of the long curing stage, rather than preparation and actual smoking, wouldnt it be fun to actually have the smoking process be a bit more realistic?

I know its a bit off topic here, but have you guys ever considered adding morale to the game? It would definitely add a huge part to the gameplay and actively encourage players to keep neat clothing, cook different stuff, travel, seek company of other humans, penalize needless killings etc.
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: JP_Finn on May 22, 2020, 12:53:12 AM
If there’s steaming vent for the protein to evaporate and lose moisture content, then warm smoking isn’t much, if any, different from drying/dehydrating. 8 hours at 145F/63C will preserve 1/4” /6mm strips of meat for at least 5 months.
(Although I use actual dehydrator which is temperature controlled and has assisted ventilation) Hot air goes up. Top of smoking teepee should vent enough.
For cold smoking, most of the actual curing is delayed dehydration while smoke keeps insects away and helps little with preservation.

wiki on Smoking (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_(cooking)), scroll down to preservation.

Hot smoking is simply roasting/baking in smoke.
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: StefanPravda on May 22, 2020, 12:04:13 PM
Off topic on topic question. Is there a good smoking guide for quick methods? I mean not the ones that require 10 days of smoking. I'd like to have fun and smoke me some meat in my hiking trips, maybe I will smoke myself some really good stuff and become a smoking chef  ;D. Thank you

PS: Also, what kind of meat would be best? I am no hunter, and in my country although it's full of poachers and deforesters, the laws are supposedly harsh and you can't hunt or cut logs unless you go through 10 thousand miles of bureaucracy. Supposedly.
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: JP_Finn on May 22, 2020, 05:07:17 PM
I feel we should cut this section off the dev news and move to general...
Best guide is general cooking knowledge.
I.e. internal temperatures, time available, heat control. They vary on the protein smoked.
If you’re a fisherman, something like lavaret or perch are great, quickly cooking fishes. Or if they’re not local species bass, barramundi, tilapia are “easy fishes. You can try to smoke a fillet, but you’ll likely find the result somewhat dry and disappointing. Whole: gutted,de-scaled, skin-on is personal preference.

Smoke Generation is the easiest part; wood chips above embers, in a tinfoil pouch with couple holes on top/on metal plate, get dedicated smoke chip tube. As for wood, depends on location. Soaking the chips hour or two can help with ’more smoke&less flame-ups’

Depending on your home/residence type and location, smoking “at the cabin” would be easier to learn with, than on hikes. If you live in block of flats/apartment building, then that might be “not permitted in the property rules”

You can search for “hot smoking basics” online for some reading material.
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: StefanPravda on May 22, 2020, 05:40:41 PM
Going to read about it, I like smoked/dried fish (both), but I rarely find quality when purchasing. Not smoked/not dried enough, plus a few ingredients can change the taste a lot.

I live in an apartment, but we are planning to buy this summer a house with an acre of land not too far but not too close to the city, with a river near, good to blow out steam and also good in case we decide to start a bit of automated mini agriculture.

I like both city and wild life, I can't see myself moving in the wilds for good, but I don't like living only in the city either.

A friend of a friend has a coop with a few tens of hens, mostly automated. He only gathers the eggs from a recipient 2-3 times a week and fills the food auto machine once a week or so. I like the idea, I can ask a neighbor to do most of that, and I can go and take the eggs, and that's it  ;D And if I throw in a few more hens for the neighbor I won't have to pay for his help either lol.
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Dungeon Smash on May 24, 2020, 07:33:56 AM
One more question... If we leave meats to smoke in a village, will it be assumed that villagers will continue to periodically light the fire?  Is the game able to track this sort of activity, even if the player is far away?  Or, must the player be continually present to smoke his own meat?

We know that villagers will light fires every now and then and they actually might do some of the smoking labour for you. The game tracks this too even if the player is far away, but the thing is that if you're away for a long time you can't be sure if they have kept the fire burning there in sufficient amount or not.
Ah, I see.  So it's rather "Luck of the draw" then.  Well, I think that's perfectly reasonable. Thank you for your reply!

Sounds like it's probably best to check in every now and then when smoking in a village, as you might expect.
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Will on May 24, 2020, 07:38:20 AM
Can't wait for all the new stuff. And I'm not sure if it's already been suggested or not yet, but when you spoke about embers and smoke, I started thinking of some additions for the scaled out travel map in relation to that, what if you could discover fires made in villages, some smoke a couple tiles farther than the village itself if you have a high enough ability in the eye statistic, and perhaps -if it isn't already implemented in the AI- it's been a while since I've been able to play so I don't know if NPC's outside villages make fires, but if they do, maybe you could spot smoke from that too, farther out and easier than seeing the people making them.
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: Ezezaguna on May 24, 2020, 05:56:10 PM
Allfather, I crave for animal husbandry. Anyways, I liked that fire mechanics improvements  ;D
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: JP_Finn on May 25, 2020, 04:07:35 AM
Allfather, I crave for animal husbandry. Anyways, I liked that fire mechanics improvements  ;D
It’s on the dev.plans (http://www.unrealworld.fi/urw_development.html) already
Title: Re: Improvements to fire mechanics, changes to smoking mechanics
Post by: koteko on May 28, 2020, 01:07:23 PM
I absolutely love these changes :D