Recent Posts

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Suggestions / Re: Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods

« Last post by Pr0man on May 07, 2024, 07:34:52 PM »

Welp, time to also throw in my two cents - I'm one of the old legacy people who have purchased it, back in ye olden days, so I feel like I've got some experience under my belt. I eventually stumbled upon the BAC mod while looking on how to enhance my gameplay, given I've been playing UrW for quite a while, and as a result I basically never play without it anymore. Why? The game as it stands, is what you make of it: no overarching story, no fun little quirkiness to uncover, just pure, unadulterated survival, and that is great. HOWEVER - to be long time invested into something like that, the game needs to have enough content to support the long gamespan we are talking about in those runs, which is where the BAC mod comes in.

It appears that the game as of right now is simply limited in amount of keyspaces available to properly distribute all the menus and submenus when one wants to run the game with a big addition mod like BAC. Is it a problem now for vanilla? No, but depending on how UrW is going to be developing moving forward, this would eventually become an issue either way, simply because there is only so many combinations of menu and submenu buttons available, and a mod that adds quite a lot of things faithful to the setting has managed to approach this limit.

I am however very much agreeing with Erkka that it should be modders making sure the mod is compatible with the game evolving, but since the amount of mod entries have grown to absolutely massive sizes, with Brygun basically curating the quite huge BAC mod all by himself, this is gonna take a good while. And until either a deeper submenu system is coded in that allows to have an extra level deeper of menus to access, or an entirely different mod make menu as requested, where the entirety of mods can be placed in, this is also going to repeat itself - And this takes time. BAC wasn't even done fully converting the entries to the by then still out 3.83 when 3.84 dropped from what I've seen, as I have seen still additions just days prior the new update coming. And I have to say, it does not feel unreasonable to make a request towards the developers, accomodating the ever growing modding community because of the games limits. When BAC has already reached the point of having to scrap portations, as well as fusing components like nails and rivets, then that only really shows that this can truly become an issue going forward.

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Suggestions / Re: Add springwater to starting scenario maps involving homesteads and camps

« Last post by JP_Finn on May 07, 2024, 05:03:56 PM »

Runaway slave starts in Njerpez camp. It makes perfect sense to have spring there too. For immersion, and eventual takeover of said camp.

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Suggestions / Re: Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods

« Last post by Plotinus on May 07, 2024, 06:54:08 AM »

After that, I continue along happily with using the mod.

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Suggestions / Re: Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods

« Last post by Plotinus on May 07, 2024, 06:53:42 AM »

As a player, when I'm in the middle of a longer modding project and some of my items are no longer compatible, I just add a new temporary item to convert what I have into what I need.

Like this:

Code: [Select]

.Stoney arrowhead. "Stone arrowhead" [effort:0] *CARPENTRY* |0| /1m/ [patch:5]
// migrate old arrowheads
{arrowhead} [remove] [patchwise]


This bit of code took all the old modded arrowheads which didn't work with the new arrows code, and very quickly converted them all into the new vanilla stone arrowheads.

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Suggestions / Re: Add springwater to starting scenario maps involving homesteads and camps

« Last post by Brygun on May 07, 2024, 03:19:32 AM »

Disagree on Runaway Slave as you have run off into the random wilds.

Maybe on the "not all who wander are lost" and "Abandoned camp" as those are temporary places that may have picked locations for a variety of reasons from long term to its dark and they camped their quickly. Water should be close within a few tiles but usually is. ~3 World map tiles


High probability for the Lonely settler as they invested into buildings. Water by spring or other water should be within same (spring) or next world map tiles.

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Suggestions / Re: Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods

« Last post by Brygun on May 07, 2024, 12:14:47 AM »

What needs to be done to fix that? I see two main alternatives;

1. The mod is updated to make it compatible with the latest version of the game
2. The vanilla game is modified to keep the new version of the game compatible with an old version of a mod

The third is what is in this thread.

3. Provide a separate make menu for modders from the vanilla.

What then happens is that when there is an update and the resulting incompatible is the one thing the mod community needs most: Time.

It also lets a mod user decide when to take in a mod update, since they are all manual installs. Thus they can finish a many step build process rather than finding out their mid process resources or tools are useless.

>>>

Example:

A player in the middle of long game in the middle of a long build cycle, like lamellar armor, can still access for that time the mod's build steps while other players can start the vanilla process.

In the case of lamellar armor various steps including the following recipes:
ore scoop, roasted ore, charcoal, smelter, smelted ore, anvil, hammer, ingot, then drill and cords

If any player blacksmithing is started some or all of those will get duplicated in the vanilla. Given the many build steps a player could be anywhere along that process.




>>>>

On what happens to the BAC when I go it was already built in that after 30 days of inactivity a new caretaker may take it over with the same terms. Not only was that planned for there was already a handoff once already to Rudy. I'm currently willing to hand off again at the moment too. The BAC though heavily my work is thought of a community owned item. Much of the work comes from the shoulders of people like Rain, Endive and Bouddia. While their exact recipes had to be changed the principles and concepts they set up are in the DNA of the mod.

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Suggestions / Re: Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods

« Last post by JP_Finn on May 06, 2024, 07:06:54 PM »

Dedicated hotkey for mods would make sense.
But would that outrule current option to touch up/edit vanilla recipes?
I like that I don’t need to add new menudef to add say wooden mugs or making stakes from boards, just add those in the vanilla diy_glossary.

I would prefer the “easy editing” stay as is.

Also for reading all the recipes at game launch, it’d make testing mods a massive pain. Edit, save mod. Shutdown, start game. Find a need to edit further.  Repeat.
No thanks!

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Suggestions / Re: Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods

« Last post by Erkka on May 06, 2024, 10:30:34 AM »

I think this is a good discussion, and I'm glad that the discussion is happening.

Also, just to make it clear; I don't see any offense intended, nor do I intend to do so myself by this comment. Just trying to ponder on a bit more abstract level;

OK, so the underlying problem is that there is a good large mod a lot of player like and use the mod - and then any new update to the vanilla game introduces something which is not compatible with the mod.

What needs to be done to fix that? I see two main alternatives;

1. The mod is updated to make it compatible with the latest version of the game
2. The vanilla game is modified to keep the new version of the game compatible with an old version of a mod

Or, the same worded bit differently;

Oh noes! A mod is not compatible with the latest version of the game! Somebody do something to solve this! Who you are going to call? Ghostbusters? No? Then who can do a bit of extra work to solve the issue?

1. The modding community to the rescue! Mods are by the players, for the players, so both making and updating the mods is something the players can contribute
2. The lead developer Sami! In addition to making all the updated to the vanilla version why doesn't the guy just do some more extra work to keep the game compatible with the mod !?!!

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Now, this maybe does not come as a surprise to anyone, but in both descriptions the option 1. seems more natural and fitting to me.

And then, in the case of BAC, if the underlying problem is that at the moment Brygun wants to focus on other things and is not actively maintaining the mod - then who should step in to fill the gap? Sami the lead developer? Or someone else from the modding community?

I'd say "the modding community" - like a clear message on the modding forums telling that at the moment the B of BAC does not have time to actively update the mod, so looking for new people to contribute, keeping this beloved large community mod alive and compatible with the new versions of the vanilla game.

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Again, I'm not claiming that this is the truth to this question. I'm just trying to clarify the way I see the situation, and I have a feeling that Sami's opinion is not so much different. But if you, the players and the modding community, see things differently or wish to point out something obvious I'm missing in my reasoning, I'm happy to hear your voice.

If I understand correctly the points already mentioned, the suggestion has been that a little bit of 2. is wished for, as seen from the player perspective Sami adding just one extra hotkey to the vanilla game should not be very much of extra work, but that little bit by Sami would offer an enormous relief for the modding community, bearing fruit for years to come. And then the reply to that involves the usual "woah, not to fast - let's first consider this carefully to see if adding that one extra hotkey is going to bring about new problems, or if it is going to require so much additional coding by Sami that it waters down the entire argument of "little extra work to reap enormous gains" instead of "the modding community doing the modding"

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Suggestions / Re: Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods

« Last post by Brygun on May 05, 2024, 11:20:04 PM »

 
No offense was intended. This was about the history of modding which you always made an available part of Unreal World. Many suggestions and possible updates exist for any game. When an update is developed and others not there will always be some different views on which one to do next or how it was done.

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On the ancestral mods...

To phrase differently players making axes, bows, lamellar armor was added by mods for years. Rain's ironworking is an example. Since Rain wrote that mod various game updates have made his code not work or miss key changes like the introduction of cord lengths. Keeping Rain's going has been part of the BAC by updating those recipes to the current mod language. 

As an example when the blacksmithing update was added the vanilla game now allowed ordering axes form villages. Vanilla players wanting to a specific axe could now get one likely through more hunting & hidework to get the value. Modded players were already making their own choice of axe, exploring the wilderness for sources of iron, crafting tools for getting ore, making charcoal and so on.

I am overall pleased to see more aspects being added to Unreal world and hope to one day see a vanilla player blacksmithing their own axe far away from a village.

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On the number of users

For the amount of community interest the BAC 3.82 version shows 524 downloads in post #1 of :https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=7176.0

Each time the game went through major updates so did BAC with a new thread to the new game version. So the total number of downloads is hard to know. Many BAC users would have downloaded the next version so the figure above is can be viewed as the active users.


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BAC was sized to have lots yet keeping a couple letters free specifically to allow any additions a particular player might want.

The mod community also has a few career mods like bee keeping which some might want and others not.

Some mods introduce being able to train your combat skills through various token systems. While likely of interest to many players it takes a few menu letters to achieve this so wasn't in the BAC. It could potentially be chosen by a player from the free spaces left by the BAC.


>>>

A suggestion was to add separate craft menu for mods to use. Right? Let's make sure I understand the proposed suggestion correctly and then brainstorm as necessary. 
So, let's say we'll make a letter O to open a blank make menu, which you can then fill with modded stuff like the current Make menu. And this would be menu that is reserved for mods only. The game craftings would appear in the exisiting Make menu, like currently. Now, if you would then fill this one modders make menu (O) with one big mod it would be..well..full. If there was a few smaller mods that you would like to put there, with custom menu entries or keys even, they would get messed up and tangled together.
If implemented like this it doesn't sound like a plausible long-term solution, or am I not understanding the suggestion?

Correct. That is the current request.

Modders over the year had requested make menu tiers, that is you open make and open a letter than another letter then the 25 recipes for 15,625 possible craft items. Memory recalls an impression on the complexity being an issue on implementing.

The current make menu has ~25x25 = 625 possible entries. By combining many of the popular mods (Rain etc) yes BAC is running close to that. Certain things have been done to save on space like "iron nails" and "iron rivets" being one recipe as the production is very similiar.

There are some mod swap, letter swap methods that are out there as mentioned by Galgana though I've personally never used them.

The modder's crafting single letter was put forward as a lower coding request. It would mean 625 that a modder can use without the "mod collision" that happens when new features are added to vanilla.

"Mod collision" happens when the vanilla game adds crafting to what the modding already had there is some in game disruptions and confusion. An example is the hafting vs BAC's existing mod code. Yes eventually the BAC would be adapted to the new vanilla standard. Until then here are some things that happen:

- BAC included making an axe thus has both an "axe head" and "axe haft"
- BAC "axe heads" don't work with the new vanilla axe fixing. Players get confused.
- BAC "axe haft" doesnt work with new vanilla axe haft so can't fix a broken axe. Players get confused.
- BAC included a chance of a bad axe mounting and recovering a BAC "axe head"

If the vanilla items and mod items are separate then for the above example what is a "BAC axe head" is kept clearly from "Vanilla axe head" and so on.

Further some item creations involve many steps. BAC has "iron nails" that are double used as rivets do save on menu space. Should at some point Saami add nails or rivets the vanilla/mod make split would avoid confusion between whose rivets are needed in recipes. This is intended as a support not a reducing of the vanilla updates.

In time the mods could update assuming the modder is still around in the community.

As another example. [Bowyer] has been added a skill. I actually think that is great. At the time of the last BAC update there was no such skill so the recipes for bow making it has couldn't use it. In time the  mod could be changed over to it. I also wouldn't be surprised if there a players confused on which bow string to use as some will be vanilla bow strings and some BAC bow strings.

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Development News / A small patch for version 3.84 released

« Last post by Sami on May 05, 2024, 02:01:37 PM »

A small patch has been released for version 3.84.
It's available for all the supported platforms on Steam, Itch.Io and for lifetimers.

These two issues were cleared, and it may be that the majority of adventurers never noticed their occurrence.

Version 3.84.1

** Saved characters from version 3.80-> are compatible with this version. **

- fixed: continuing pausable crafting with inferior tools caused erroneous production times

If inferior tools were used to start and continue pausable crafting tasks the remaining production times were not always set correctly. This glitch occasionally initiated conditions where continued pausable crafting required seemingly endless production times.

- fixed: wrong javelin item tile

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Happy patched adventures!