UnReal World > Suggestions

Make Menu only for Modded items = saving BAC and other large mods

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Brygun:
Mod collision continues to happen with the 3.83 and 3.84 updates with it going to continue to cause conflicts with large mods like the BAC

If you could give us a single key for a craft menu only for modded items it would help greatly. The large BAC mod could be fired up that way with its existing ways of making axes, bows and so on that date back to Bouddia and Rain.

The existing craft menu could remain the same and modders could add to it like now, though knowing that future updates may cause collisons.

Collisions as discussed before happen when updates add items to menus that cause overflow when the total of (new vanilla plus mod items) exceeds the allowed amounts and in the case of the Hafted menu a letter (in this case "H") already being used by a mod.

There are 3 solutions.
= Tiered menu where you open crafting then choose a master menu A, B, C etc but this hasn't been implemented as a heavy coding change

= Co-ordinating the top menu of letters with a large mode like BAC which has already puzzled out things but clearly with "H" for a couple of hafting items isn't of interest

= Give modders a one letter for a seperate modders craft menu. This seems plausible and with limited coding needs. Simply put instead of the "M" for make another letter is u sed to open another craft menu. A craft menu that the dev >NEVER< puts vanilla items into. Instead the large modders can use this as a safe space to figure out on our own large collections such as BAC.

Frankly the ongoing additions of a few items like hand axes and bow making has been modded since long before BAC dating to Bouddia and Rain years ago. I agree that added pausable crafting is a good thing and in time Saami should integrate many of the crafts into vanilla. What is killing the game of those using large mods, and many do use BAC, is the mod collision along the way.

The "modder craft menu" is a more specific lower coding requirement that would support with the large mods. Unreal has long had a commitment and encouragement to modding, such as the initial webpage hosting. Its been years since the first days. You have the success of large mods. For them to function they need to avoid mod collison.

A single separate menu would work for this.

Sami:
Without getting further into this a few things come to my mind...
Now I haven't tried BAC or other mods, except for snippets provided for bugfixing, but if it's eating up all the space there must be hundreds of entries to make - right?
If that's the case I'm just wondering are they all absolutely necessary... or could there room for quality over quantity approach, removal of some probably excess curiosities, streamlining recipes to meet more with the existing resources or make categories, and so on?

(Also, are there any "other large mods" that are found troublesome to keep up with the recent updates to the game?)

Brygun:
The number of entries is likely in the hundreds yes. Its name include "and community" as there is ALOT of recipes from many of our community in it. I acted as the primary but not only curator.  Its how upto 3.82 the BAC combined kept alive mods like Rain's Ironworking, Endive Survival, Bouddia, Weaving, my own collection of oddities, Iago's whittling and many others.

The make menu allows IIRC 24 letters. Of the 24 letters allowed BAC uses 22 with only about 2 unused. Thus any update which makes use of a new letter, like hafting did in 3.83 creates collision with the mod.

It has the production steps for gathering, smelting, forging iron to make axes, swords, metal armor, helms. There was bow making and arrow making. More items included wool making for wool clothing, retting and so on to end up with cloth clothing and bags, clay crafting for pots and containers. A collection of cooking recipes as well.

Overall...

I encourage and expect the ongoing vanilla adds to pull in the mod versions of things, like bow making now, into vanilla recipes. That's a good thing.

The recipes at the times pushed the limits of what we could do like no step could take more than 8 hours due to needing food and water. One affect is that to have longer processes, like making a canoe, they had to be broken down into 8 hour steps each needing a menu item entry. Now Saami has nicely added pausable crafting. So there is some long projects which could be updated.

The challenge is as new vanilla crafting methods (nets, axes, bows) there is both space needed and a duality that exists. Since a BAC install will overwrite some menus reports are players get confused as to if they dehaft with the new vanilla system they then end up in a BAC menu which doesn't use the same thing and vice versa.

So to avoid the large mod overlap with the least programming it would be good if we could have a modders second letter for making items. We could just stick large mods like BAC there. Then when the game updates, as it should, with new updated items players current games would know to continue with vanilla or BAC. Example being axe making and rehafting are not compatible between 3.82 BAC and 3.82 vanilla.



>>>

If you do want to at least see how much was in BAC it was last updated to 3.82 so please use that version of the game. There is short adjustment needed for 3.83. No updating has been put forward for 3.84. Even a few minutes would show you the extent to what BAC grew into.

Sami:

--- Quote from: Brygun on May 02, 2024, 05:07:45 AM ---The number of entries is likely in the hundreds yes.
..
The make menu allows IIRC 24 letters. Of the 24 letters allowed BAC uses 22 with only about 2 unused. Thus any update which makes use of a new letter, like hafting did in 3.83 creates collision with the mod.
..
It has the production steps for gathering, smelting, forging iron to make axes, swords, metal armor, helms. There was bow making and arrow making. More items included wool making for wool clothing, retting and so on to end up with cloth clothing and bags, clay crafting for pots and containers. A collection of cooking recipes as well.
--- End quote ---

Okay, so it's hundreds, thus I believe my pondering is valid. (Are they are absolutely necessary... or could there room for quality over quantity approach, removal of some probably excess curiosities, streamlining recipes to meet more with the existing resources or make categories, and so on?)

And yes of course, any update which uses a new letter reserves that letter, it's not a surprise, but there haven't been that many new letters over the past years so I don't suspect re-organizing few letters is a problem. And as the system is as it is now, the easiest solution to fix the mod to work with the current updates is to streamline, reduce and re-organize.


--- Quote ---I encourage and expect the ongoing vanilla adds to pull in the mod versions of things, like bow making now, into vanilla recipes. That's a good thing.|/quote]
--- End quote ---

As mentioned we don't actually follow mods. Also from dev's point of view adding new items with new mechanics that actually tie them into game world within the core level needs to be done with old-school programming. Modding is player's thing.


--- Quote ---The challenge is as new vanilla crafting methods (nets, axes, bows) there is both space needed and a duality that exists. Since a BAC install will overwrite some menus reports are players get confused as to if they dehaft with the new vanilla system they then end up in a BAC menu which doesn't use the same thing and vice versa.
--- End quote ---

Hmm. Why won't you remove the duality from BAC then? If there is somekind of hafting in BAC, what's the reason for still keeping it in there and reserving the space when there's proper in-game hafting mechanics to use.

If the intention is to have modded counterpart for everything, and not to utilize the existing resources and mechanics, it's doomed way anyway. For example proper hafting where the item is treated in the game as the head and haft can't be created with modding. Surely an illusion of it can be created, but neglecting the item handling etc. provided by the game may lead into unexpected problems during the gameplay. And same goes for variety of items. If all of the existing, especially the hardcoded stuff, is replace by just modding it's actively breaking some game elements here and there.


--- Quote ---So to avoid the large mod overlap with the least programming it would be good if we could have a modders second letter for making items. We could just stick large mods like BAC there. Then when the game updates, as it should, with new updated items players current games would know to continue with vanilla or BAC. Example being axe making and rehafting are not compatible between 3.82 BAC and 3.82 vanilla.
--- End quote ---

As we're very occupied with the pausable and crafting additions I don't have time to seriously consider the options, but I'll digest things when time allows.


--- Quote ---If you do want to at least see how much was in BAC it was last updated to 3.82 so please use that version of the game. There is short adjustment needed for 3.83. No updating has been put forward for 3.84. Even a few minutes would show you the extent to what BAC grew into.
--- End quote ---

I'll have a look when time allows, and will get back then probably with better insight of the possible solutions to remedy things - which I'm afraid now also calls for cleaning up the mod code too. I get there's lots of entries, and it's been lots of work to come up with, but for me personally things that advertise themselves as having 15,000+ items and 7000+ different trinkets are are turn off for me. That's just me, though.

Brygun:

--- Quote from: Sami on May 02, 2024, 01:32:27 PM ---
--- Quote ---The challenge is as new vanilla crafting methods (nets, axes, bows) there is both space needed and a duality that exists. Since a BAC install will overwrite some menus reports are players get confused as to if they dehaft with the new vanilla system they then end up in a BAC menu which doesn't use the same thing and vice versa.
--- End quote ---

Hmm. Why won't you remove the duality from BAC then? If there is somekind of hafting in BAC, what's the reason for still keeping it in there and reserving the space when there's proper in-game hafting mechanics to use.

If the intention is to have modded counterpart for everything, and not to utilize the existing resources and mechanics, it's doomed way anyway.

--- End quote ---

Cart <> Horse debate.

As the ancestral mods go back to Rain's ironworking it added the ability to make most of the in game items. This being done at a time when vanilla had no way to do so.

I do think adding into vanilla making items is good. Your own views on times, resources and coding like haft will take of course be different and that's fine. Things like pausable crafting didn't exist so we had to limit times too.

Eventually after each update the duplications would in time be dropped. However at the time of release there is a lot of jumbled things. Like BAC axe heads aren't the new vanilla axe heads. BAC axe hafts aren't the new vanilla axe hafts. Players in the middle of play get confused, frustrated and might not even see the new vanilla menus depending on which installs over the other.

Having an extra letter would let the large mod items exist separately. On a new vanilla update both could exist without that jumble. In time the mod could be updated and remove what is now duplicated by new vanilla code. Example 3.84 added more bows which were already craftable by the mods.

There is also a matter of who will be updating BAC as it might not be myself in the next few cycles. It is set up as a "community" collective and there has been other caretakers along the way. The one extra button is something that gives the large mod time to sort out without thrashing existing games when ongoing vanilla updates creates new duplicates are new principles. Principles like the cordage update and pausable crafts.

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