Some of the items in the game seem far-fetched in the setting of URW, i think it would be more coherent if some armor and weapons were removed from the game.
Specifically: Iron Coudes, Iron Kneecops, Leather Cuirass and all two handed swords.
- The CROSSBOW?!? I don't have really sources about it, I know there where primitive crossbow in roman and greek armies in the past, but far as I know, in early medieval northen-central europe, crossbow didn't exist.
- Battleaxe: it's just fine, even if I'm not sure that finnish used two-handed axe in battle. I know some rus and in general slavic cultures used two handed axe, as well romphaia as a two handed polearm to swing, but honestly i think was not a battle weapon, but just two handed axes for timberwork, trasfromed in war weapons. The only I'm sure were scandinavian population that used the famished dane axe, and some druzina. The use in battle was not that easy, and people usually prefer to use a shield with a shorter axe
- Leather lamellar cuirass, i think work just fine, even if there is no evidence for any lamellar being worn by Scandinavian and Baltic cultures during the early medieval period and iron age. But was already used but some eastern cultures (Njerpez), and it is easy to think that warriors who could not afford steel armor, would have used leather instead (boiled in beeswax), which was much cheaper
There seems to have been a display of a two handed axe looking very similar to a dane axe at Pukkisaari Iron Age Village. Pukkisaari is also the site where images for the homestead is taken and some of the portraits seem to be from reenactors that have visited the site.
I agree that lamellar is fine, be it leather or metal. I was referring to the leather cuirass that the player was able to make, which isnt specified as lamellar.
Thanks you for these info! Very interesting... I will dig a bit :) Anyway I think two-handed axes are just fine in URW, and fit the area and period
Some of the items in the game seem far-fetched in the setting of URW, i think it would be more coherent if some armor and weapons were removed from the game.
Specifically: Iron Coudes, Iron Kneecops, Leather Cuirass and all two handed swords.
Yep, there are some of those leftovers, and now that we're working on blacksmith NPCs there's a natural place for cleaning up. For the swords we could basically go with simple classification of shortsword and longsword alone, giving enough difference - and indeed remove the two-handed ones.
The sword terminology is a bit problematic, as even the longsword term would surely bring most of the players in mind something else than, say, "Z-type sword in Petersen typology with edged portion of the blade longer than 70 cm".
But if we cut the swords down to only short and long, I kind of already hear somebody pointing out that there can't be only two types of swords in the world. But we surely can't go for "Sword with X type hilt and 67 cm long blade" item names either. As there are no common names for the iron-age swords that people would immediately understand, we've allowed some generic but era-inaccurate swords remain in place for the sake of variety. But it bothers us too.
When it comes to coudes and kneecops, even though the terms are problematic, this kind of spot protections have been used around the game era elsewhere in the world. And many imported goods have found their way to foreign traders, from many places of the world. These are not local, nor locally produced armours. The same goes for cuirass - which name in a lack of better generic term - unfortunately brings to one's mind a medieval world.
So, in the game we have a door open that this and this kind of items may have found their way to the unreal world, through possible trade/raid routes.
I'm a little more hesitant about shin-cops, the very first ones I've seen I found them on Byzantine finds, around the year 1000.
QuoteI'm a little more hesitant about shin-cops, the very first ones I've seen I found them on Byzantine finds, around the year 1000.
The game is based on roughly 800 - 1200, and the Viking trade routes down the Russian rivers took all the way down to Byzantine, so I'd guess it is withing the frame of possibility that some instances of 1000 AD Byzantine items reached the shores of Finland before 1200 ended :)
When it comes to coudes and kneecops, even though the terms are problematic, this kind of spot protections have been used around the game era elsewhere in the world. And many imported goods have found their way to foreign traders, from many places of the world. These are not local, nor locally produced armours. The same goes for cuirass - which name in a lack of better generic term - unfortunately brings to one's mind a medieval world.
So, in the game we have a door open that this and this kind of items may have found their way to the unreal world, through possible trade/raid routes.
The game is based on roughly 800 - 1200, and the Viking trade routes down the Russian rivers took all the way down to Byzantine, so I'd guess it is withing the frame of possibility that some instances of 1000 AD Byzantine items reached the shores of Finland before 1200 ended :)
Good discussion and suggestions, MHB and Plasmator94. Nice food for thoughts, and we'll be exploring all this along with blacksmith coding.
I just add a little remark here that in our opinion (too) many metal goods, swords especially, should be far more a rare than they currently are.
All the blacksmiths will produce culturally related items to the level of their expertise, and it's likely that (at least some) blacksmith NPCs are able to produce swords too.
In the long run the villages actually should get rid of valuable goods lying around in storehouses and available for trade, and eg. swords had to be ordered from a capable blacksmith or traded from (foreign) traders. This sort of rarity, however, is hard to accept by many players. As well, as the fact that not just anyone can forge themselves an usable sword, or even a knife.